Episode 73

hey everybody and welcome to another amazing episode of Finding Peaks Yours Truly president and founder Chris Burns AKA recovery cheerleader hopeful recovering member let’s go I was going to tap my chest but it normally does the mic thing yeah they hate that they do it’s really yeah they’re like stop tapping but anyway we have my uh co-host who I love and cherish is a friend professional and colleague Jason friezma Chief clinical officer as well as licensed professional counselor and then we have Rachel Tapp back on the show so grateful to have her back one of our longest standing employees and our director of outpatient services both Colorado Springs and Denver so there’s probably nobody who directs with that type of space the geography yeah that’s a lot of Direction and she does it quite well so really grateful to have you on and you know what I do here I bring on great professionals but even better humans and that’s what we’re about to get into so um what is top of mind today and what I want to start talking about on this episode as well as the uh the following episodes leading up is like how can we begin to focus more wholeheartedly on mental health and not so much on this addiction piece and there was a book that just came out and um it was a follow-up to a trauma documentary that Dr gaboramate did in 2020 which was caused the wisdom of trauma and he did this deep dive in that documentary which really caught my eye and then he followed it up with this book um called the um I was escaping me right now um the myth of normal yeah the myth of normal which is really really great and it really goes on to debunk a lot of not necessarily debunked but really um get a bit more sophisticated around conversations in and around mental health in what actually informs addiction and so I’m really excited because it’s just a breath of fresh air for this field and for myself as a professional and somebody in long-term recovery and so I just want to open up today’s show checking him with Jason because Jason did you actually get to see Gabor Monte yeah okay super there you were at the conference too but you didn’t go in there right right I was I was part of the myth of the normal at the time yeah but you got to see Gabor mate yeah five years ago yeah it was five years ago yeah we had a booth okay uh right next to where he was presenting and um actually I took a ton of notes like they’re in my phone still um because he he you know I think he’s refining his message like he was saying pretty Innovative things but even back then and I think it’s informed kind of what we’re doing at Peaks and and how we’re beginning to conceptualize um treating mental health and substance use is not very different things uh because there’s way more in common there’s uh separate from all that so uh yeah I’ve been familiar with Cabo mate for quite a while actually Dr Justin Lincoln also gave me a book of his probably 10 years ago yeah yeah do you have any experience with Gabor Monte I when you hear something like that because I hear that and now it’s time and place yeah even six five six years ago time and place if you would have walked out of there and been like hey there’s this guy Gabor mate I’d have been like what 12-step meeting did he come from right yeah and you would have been like okay how do you get information like that and hold it so close without going hey I think I found something over here like not and not become like an evangelist of it yeah I think um that’s a good I had to go through my own skepticism about it Faithfully in like um we also kind of live in this really in the real world of like how do we practically Implement something and and I think um we’re reaching a point certainly at Peaks and and hopefully culturally where it’s like we have to really refine what we’re doing and 35 outcomes uh is not great and something is broken and I think it seems wise to go all the way to how we Define the problem seems to be what may be broken yeah it’s hard to build a good recovery program uh if your foundation has some flaws sure hey that makes a lot of sense too and and sometimes it’s not safe to share that information yeah I mean I’m not sure you’re in a listening mode back honestly yeah that’s what I was telling Jay before the show he could have told me Gabor mate was there and I’d have been like man I’m going over here hanging out smoking cigars yeah but I’ve really learned the value and the benefit of that information and how it doesn’t decrease but nearly dismisses shame if we have this really functional intentional process and Peaks I think is really cutting edge and Innovative in its approach in its curriculum um the the titles of each week not one of them is alcoholism or addiction or relapse prevention for good reason and so I believe we are on The Cutting Edge and since we’re on The Cutting Edge we’re going to continue to be on the Forefront and talk about this but I want to turn it over to Rachel because Rachel started out as obviously a client care aide and then a residential director which when she started with us was really 12-step driven conducted by Yours Truly right and so there was a lot of things we believed to be true about 12-step the behaviors the association the connectedness the meeting place and I still find some of those things to be true but just not so intensely how has the transition been for you and what have you seen as a benefit for getting out of the cultural norm which is something that was was built in 1935 in every Aftercare plan goes in that direction so I think for me it in a really cool


it’s been challenging I think that like what we were talking about before the show like this is the hard way this is not the um okay well like just you know like learn you have to accept it or you know like we used to have clients write down the doctor’s opinion as like a consequence yeah like that is crazy yeah you know but like in instead of like sitting down and actually like talking to a client about like okay so like what’s actually coming up for you with this you know um and I mean I’ve even implemented this more in with like my staff too you know um but yeah it has been um a really eye-opening experience because it’s I’m actually finding that um I mean from what I’ve seen it’s actually not helpful like the 12 Steps it’s helpful for some I think you know like what we talked about like finding that Community um but Jason and I have had a conversation about like the shame that you know like the 12 steps and AAA actually brings to people um and I’ve had that experience and um you know I I just don’t think that it’s worth it it’s not worth it to put our clients through more shame and ourselves through more shame than we’ve already been through I love what you said it’s hard it’s hard it’s hard the easy button is to do this right I’d find my 14-year chip around here somewhere and I grab it and I hold it up and I say let’s go if you want what I have you’re willing to do what I do that is so easy yep it is and then I can take you through 12 things that show you the way but unfortunately not everybody’s built like Chris Burns not everybody comes in without Family Support not everybody comes in disenfranchised not everybody is experiencing uh extreme dislocation in their family of origin for those people it tends to set up really well because it speaks to a couple things connection with community and connection with family and the absence of family of origin and so I think for some people it can be beneficial to start and kind of build that communal Foundation but I think with time we’re really called to do the hard thing which is engage in our Mental Health um and I understand the rub because the rub was for me it was for me wholeheartedly really until about 2016 or 2017. but in 2016 I was talking to them before the show and this is the myth of the normal and this is what Dr Gabor mate addresses so well is that in 2016 I am sitting in a position as the president and founder of Peaks recovery I am being praised by our team the community judges lawyers nurses Community you name it the only people that weren’t singing my Praises were my family of origin right and that’s the myth that I think we get behind in that Dr Gabor mate covers so well in his book is he says I was on the front page of the Vancouver newspaper in my life was burning down in the background and here I am Champion change for lots of vulnerable people’s plans and purposes and I can’t even get behind my own mental health so I love that you said that because it is a rub and it is a call to action um what are some of the things Jason um that you think that we have gotten into as a field and maybe even at Peaks that we can grow in and out of that have constructively kind of been the norm like is like new things that we’re making the norm are previously previous things that might have been like the the norm in our field that we’ve grown up and out of okay and then maybe some things we’re advancing from there I mean certainly like doing addiction treatment uh it was very normal for clinicians to work on powerlessness and unmanageability to work on uh like bring your fourth step to your next session and we’re going to kind of go over it almost uh taking overs in a sponsor Lane and um actually created a ton of tension I think between the the community-based programs and treatment and um and really um I think that creates uh lazy it’s lazy clinical work yes because it it isn’t using any theory of counseling all it is is taking what was written by lay people back in the 1930s and then applying it to current day uh treatment and so uh moving away from that and using actual clinical skills to include cognitive behavioral therapy DBT uh act all the all the therapies that we provided Peaks like um it puts kind of the AAA or even other community-based programs in the in the correct Lane which is community-based support systems and it it allows clinical work to to focus on issues like trauma and other mental health issues depression anxiety that sort of thing that’s huge you’re actually bringing up a point in the book where Dr Gabor mate says in regards to parents and treatment programs the more stressed out the parents studies short show the more punitive the more stressed out the company studies show more punitive interesting right and so what we have in our world is we got I don’t know 14 000 addiction treatment providers under resourced undervalued not focused in on Mental Health stressed out and very punitive yeah 12-step at times can feel very punitive in its approach and so I I kind of want to throw back to you Rachel let’s talk about how we can be a little bit more intelligent and sophisticated on that side to meet our clients where they’re at


well okay so I I do want I want to go back quickly because I think um when you were talking about like okay Chris Burns in 2016 like the AAA and the 12 Steps like that was coming from you um I I want to give you a little bit of credit because it was actually coming from I mean the entire industry um and I think um so one thing that I really appreciate about Peaks as a whole is like like when we know better than we do better right and so I think that we and I think that’s actually an Al-Anon phrase um I I hold that one to my heart because like we we figured out how to do it better right yeah and um it has been


I mean it’s just crazy how much differently our clients are receptive to like this approach I never got to see or have the experience sitting with somebody simply having a cup of coffee where I got to watch shame leave their face yeah literally leave their body and they go and hope lights up I never experienced that in any of my sponsor sponsee relationships it was very you driven use statements and I never found that in those circumstances and scenarios and oftentimes those meetings anybody was ever ever able to settle it was this hyper vigilance it was a scared traumatized person who was just kind of going through and checking the boxes because they’ve been saying this is the best way since 1935 only to be met with more shame because of relapse and dislocation now in my community which can be really really tough I love that you mentioned that because people will say Chris fentanyl it’s dangerous we got to intervene we gotta you got to tell them what they need to do and I’m like I just don’t agree with that I think I think what Gabor mate covers so well is that our environment informs us before we inform it right and so moving out of the medical model which I think is important we begin to ask questions like not why the addiction why are you here it’s why the pain right and that’s just a shift it might even be the same holistic approach to care but it’s just a shift in where we sit in the table and the questions that we ask um that I have found and I’m sure you guys as well um have accounted for a pretty tremendous shift in our culture our outcomes and our delivery of Behavioral Health Services well and I also think you know one thing that um I’ve noticed especially with our um you know our clients that struggle with substance use is um especially at IOP level of care like there is stuff I mean so we have a client that comes in and um they initially came in and they’re addicted to heroin or fentanyl or what have you um and we you know I’m looking at the uas and I see that they’ve tested positive for marijuana you know so my first question is why right like help me understand why because it’s not about the substance right it is not about the substance it’s about like okay walk me through it and like What feelings were coming up for you what um had you just gotten into an altercation with your family okay what did that bring up for you um you know and I I know for a fact that there’s not other treatment centers that are doing that you know and I think that it it it speaks to um I mean just the shift you know the shift that Peaks is making um because I mean mental health matters yeah matters of time it really does because it’s not about the substance at all well it’s interesting you know when we talk about peaks in 2016 uh I get a little defensive in a way because though we had good bones right like we we had we had problems for sure but what we did do well is we really did passionately care about clients and um I don’t agree with all of our approaches back then by any stretch of the imagination but I do think uh we’ve been very shame aware I think for a lot of the time like I don’t think um I don’t think that we’re in the business of shaming people ever really and I think um so like we had I think we had the right heart and I think we had clients did well and got better under our model before but I think it was almost in spite of some of our interventions sure and it was much more about that we were we were all kind of pouring our heart into what we were doing for sure and and really what I think you know you bring up the Scott Governor mate stuff is it the reason it’s resonating is because it’s what we already all were intuiting we just didn’t have necessarily the words and um and kind of that affirmation from kind of an outside you know MD to come in and be like you know what actually like addiction is a much broader term um you know and I think you’ve joked on this show a few times that like Jason you’re like you’re not in recovery from drugs and alcohol but you’re in recovery man I’m like yeah you’ve said that like from the beginning yeah and like he’s saying yeah exactly yeah that this is a much broader tent this definition of addiction or of of struggling suffering basically is what we’re defining and and seeking relief from suffering like most people do that yeah truthfully and then most people want freedom from that yeah and we’ve intuited that for a long time now we just have some some Concepts to really focus on and develop from yeah and it’s really shifted the lens too because it used to be oh we got a mental health primary yeah everybody in your programs you guys 14 000 treatment centers in the United States everybody’s Mental Health primary okay exactly and you can only find that out when you have 10 mental health primaries and 10 substance use disorders and you see that we’re in group we’re all asking the same questions we’re saying the same things we’re healing together yeah it’s all mental health and I just love that we don’t have to continue to stigmatize addicts and alcoholics and in turn stigmatize the rest of the world who’s fighting hard for their recovery yeah you know and those people can come to Peaks yeah um there’s um when I’m interviewing for a new employee that’s actually one of the questions I ask is um what is the difference between mental health and addiction and um if their answer is there’s not a difference I mean that’s where I didn’t there’s not a difference right yeah and that’s a beautiful thing how I think that on the other side and I want to bring this up for sure is there there will be people that will watch this episode and say there’s inherent risk factors with that approach there’s huge risk factors that wouldn’t otherwise be there if we weren’t controlling behaviors right so what do you say to that because there’s this other side that says fentanyl addiction kills people and that’s a really really narrow Cliff’s Edge so you really need to wrap around that and tell him what he needs to do or else he’s going to lose his life what do you say to somebody that approaches it from that angle


I mean I’ll start I think uh um we can tell people what to do all the time we can tell them to stop eating McDonald’s we can tell people that don’t drink soda we can tell people not smoke or vape or whatever um awesome tell them uh but what good does that do truthfully um and I think and I think that’s where more and more of like what what is driving this and what relief are you seeking yeah and then how do we find you genuine relief from that yeah right like absolutely there’s a there’s a huge fentanyl uh problem for sure that we’re facing the likes of which we’ve never faced before but um it’s one thing I think a gets right a fair amount of the time would be um this TV turned on over here the big thing I think would be uh um you know really kind of driving at what what’s what’s actually driving I think because honestly like I’ve done this long enough like I saw the math thing go uh in the early 2000s I watched uh the heroin epidemic of the late 2000s in the 2010-12 and now we’re in fentanyl like they’ll be the next I don’t know what it is I can’t predict but um what I do know is like we’re not necessarily getting to the core but yeah and telling people what to do I I that just so really works to be honest with you and that’s actually where you get the dishonesty that’s where you get all the resistance I remember thinking I remember someone told me you know how you’re lying Chris your lips are moving and you’re in your first year of recovery I’m like oh shame statement shame statement right I love what you’re saying because what if we just ask him like what are you getting out of the fentanyl yeah like right yeah what need is that meeting because addiction comes in when it needs more seconds of relief yeah I mean and it’s worth it yeah okay so why exactly and how can we find other ways to find some relief yeah because when you’re going to just pull out something that people describe as a warm blanket yep the first time I’ve ever been hugged the first time I ever felt like I could connect or be a part of or be a friend or helpful to anyone yeah was this substance and it worked great and back to the quote that I shared last week from it wasn’t Gabor Monte was another doctor in the book but it’s really hard to get enough of something that almost works it’s really hard to get enough of something that almost works so addiction makes a lot of sense a tremendous amount of sense and so how can we insert as a treatment team to say hey we got this fentanyl thing I always like to sit down with guys and women and say man tell me I’m grateful you had that alcohol and they’re like huh like what’d it do for you like yeah I’m grateful too you know because if I’m not chewing on a pill I’m trying to chew on a pistol like and that’s the transition yeah right and so I think we actually have to get pay homage to hey this actually was supportive for me I met a Benson hedges in a bottle of vodka 13 years old that in in in that time and place saved my life absolutely right and so turn it back over to you Rachel what do you get out of not just meeting people where they’re at but being taking the harder route being more Curious asking better questions what do you see in turn from that client’s presentation and overall behavior and let’s go back to the word that we always use in in the past willingness so um the approach that we’re taking um it is it is a lot more challenging um it I mean it’s harder for everyone involved and um so what I get from that is honestly trust like I I get trust from the clients because you know when I sit down and I have that conversation about the marijuana okay you know like so like I just want to explore this with you you know like what what came up for you what were you feeling um you know and then they come back they come back to group and they after they’ve relapsed right right um they like that that’s what I get is that they keep coming back right they keep coming back to a place that is safe yeah you know and that isn’t going to shame them because they smoked a joint yeah you know God it’s amazing my experience in the literature the aldated literature really points to you know we put that substance in our body eject button to the Moon you don’t see them for days months years that had been my experience one of the saddest things I’ve actually experienced in recovery but to your point I know I touched on it on another show but since you brought it up um it dismisses shame it helps people settle it keeps them safe so safe that they actually go right back into group and talk about it that’s Earth shattering Earth shattering man and I am so excited and I bring this Gabor mate stuff up because it’s so hopeful it’s such a light at the end of the tunnel we have an opportunity to heal but it just turns out that we have to heal from the inside out um not the outside in it doesn’t work that way which I think is really cool in an awesome call to courage because each and every one of us can be in recovery and actively pursue helping others in their mental health we don’t have to hear that Jay what drug did you do to make sure I can relate with you yep I might relate to Jason more than I have with any other addict or alcoholic and he’s never done any intravenous drugs confirmed confirmed Trish is like you know so a breath of fresh air um and I just want to end with this I remember as a 20 year old I was sitting in my first inpatient treatment program and this is the myth of the normal I think and I looked up and there’s this guy sitting in front of me his name’s Lenny Siegel he’s still a great human someone that I really look up to but what I was fixated on in his counseling office and I thought it was the coolest thing since sliced bread and he showed it to me was his 10-year chip and his master’s degree from ASU University I don’t know if you showed me the ASU thing it was right next to it but he said that’s the 10-year chip and he was the first person and I tell this story all the time he was the first person I ever met in their 20s with a decade of sobriety and a degree and I chased that until three years ago to learn that that no offense to Lenny Lenny’s much more than that chip Lenny’s consider it he’s honest he has Integrity he’s open he cared about me before I could care about myself so in my opinion the last thing we should talk about is how many years of sobriety he has appreciate you Lenny so thank you all for coming on I’m going to continue to talk about this stuff bring other professionals on as well as great humans I just want to continue to ruffle the feathers of the industry and really call a courageous um call a call to action that is courageous and I think it does take some courage to come in and say hey I got it wrong it’s vulnerable but it’s also authentic to say that we’re going to continue to fight here at peak’s recovery um to get it right to ensure that our outcome data continues to go up I mean we’re not going to concern ourselves with the national average that’s abysmal until next time I appreciate you all find us on all of your podcasts Instagram Tick Tock got some good ones coming out this week we just poured the foundation on a new facility check us out until next time peace