Episode 50

empathy is knowing our own darkness well

enough to sin it’s without that

connection you don’t have anything

what’s the opposite just freedom

hello everyone

welcome back

to

the 50th the five the zero episode of

finding peaks recovery centers who would

have thought from episode one to episode


to make this an absolutely fantastic

episode 50 here at finding peaks looking

forward to it

you all may remember a couple weeks ago

even several weeks ago

jason and clint and i

tried to address

cultural and societal norms and its

impact on individuals or at least the

impact we see on individuals within

substance use disorder and mental health

primary settings such as peaks recovery

centers and it trailed off a little bit

into more of a gender specific

treatment episode uh in regards i think

we navigated it

as best we could but maybe not the best

and then i was sitting in a training

opportunity at uh at our com within our

company culture that we do on tuesdays

and these two fantastic individuals with

us today um did a phenomenal job

actually about bringing that uh

education into our setting and i thought

those those were the individuals that

needed to be on this episode that jason

and clinton and i i just could not get

right so i’m joined today by uh kimberly

holcomb

welcome she is uh the family specialist

family service specialist at peaks

recovery center’s master’s in sociology

and working on her certified addiction

specialist

licensure uh congrats on that direction

thank you thank you for being here and

then also joined by pema white uh

primary therapist for peaks recovery

centers also working on our women’s or

excuse me our family programming

in that regard licensed professional

counselor and licensed addiction

counselor meaning she has a masters in

all the things

so

we’ve got those talents on board and if

you come into you know peaks recovery

centers or otherwise if you are a

patient of ours or a family member you

cannot come through this uh program

without seeing these two individuals it

is nearly impossible

in that regard so thank you both for

being with me today and joining us here

on finding peaks and let’s get after it

so

cultural and societal norms and

the impact of those individual

experiences and what we see within uh

our setting at peaks recovery centers so

what is it before we kind of dive in

here that kind of inspires you guys

about this topic in the first place

yeah

okay uh

so i think

you know looking at culture it it’s i

find it inspiring because it’s it’s all

of us right um there’s a great

quote by david foster wallace he was

giving a commencement speech once and uh

he talked about you know two fish

swimming downstream and there’s this

older fish that’s swimming upstream and

says hey fellas how’s the water um and

they they just kind of wave him off and

a little while later the one fish turns

to the other and says what the hell is

water

uh right and that’s culture to me right

this thing that we’re moving through

whether it’s familial culture or or

culture on a larger scale we’re moving

through it we’re creating it as we go

you know we’re influenced by it we learn

from it all of that and yet

we we don’t tend to take a look at it

critically or to look at the ways it

impacts our lives and our trajectories

in terms of you know all the things but

certainly maybe addiction and mental

health and all of that so it’s kind of

the water we’re swimming in but not

really aware of

yeah

i think i would uh say that you know

from an individual perspective um that

it’s it’s just so fascinating one part i

just love about my job is being able to

hear someone’s story um as them as the

expert and um you know when i was doing

my master’s program there’s all of these

like categorizes when you work with you

know native american folks then you need

to be aware of this and when you work

with these cultures be aware of this and

i remember at the time thinking how

overwhelming as a therapist i would have

to like learn all the cultures and all

the ways to navigate cultures and you

know and i’m like there must be an

easier way there is you just simply ask

someone um right because it doesn’t

matter how many boxes i understand it

matters how they understand their box

and if they even have a box or see it as

that and so um i think a lot of times

they’ll see you know assumptions being

made and you know in in staffings and

things like that oh well you know we’re

dealing with this type of culture then

we have to have this approach i’m like

is that true is that true for that

individual um did anyone bother to ask

them

and so being able to sit down and hear

someone’s story about you know the boxes

they’ve been put in and how that’s

impacted them and affected them and the

box they’re trying to to be put in and

um and sometimes it’s a rejection of a

culture that they’re asking for stop

seeing me as this and stop treating me

as this

or because of my you know trauma and

experiences i want nothing to do with

this and you know and so a lot of times

hearing that and then allowing that

person to you know to be the expert at

something for once in their life usually

like when you come through treatment

you’re told where to go and where to sit

and what diagnosis you have and and how

the program is going to be laid out and

how you’re going to fit into it

can sometimes be very overwhelming and

frustrating and so sometimes just i

think the best way to approach it is

just to hear how that person’s

environment and experience um is going

to you know help us understand them yeah

wonderful well thank you for uh bringing

forward what’s what what makes you both

passionate about this topic i’m going to

attempt slightly it’s not something that

i need a response to but just slightly

create an analogy through philosophy so

i’m going to try and bring my bread and

butter to this uh gene french

philosopher ex famous existentialist uh

infamously said that essence precedes

existence meaning that our experiences

come prior to these essential features

as

which historically in philosophy um

the essential aspects of ourselves was

thought to um

we thought or we believed that those

were more rudimentary and fundamental to

our nature where our experiences are the

actual thriving thing and so with this

it seems like uh in regards to culture

and societal norms right that an

individual has their own experience

within the world but there are

experiences behind it in front of it

that thinks this is actually the way the

individual ought to be in that sort of

way and so

for me this topic is inspiring inspiring

and it resonates with me uh that there’s

sort of a challenge of authenticity here

how i feel authentic within the world

through my own personal experiences yet

at the same time maybe my family my

friends or otherwise told me i actually

should be experiencing the world in this

way because this is the way that the

world works and so laying the foundation

of authenticity and what that is like i

think is

an important aspect of this before we

start grinding away at some question

here so uh what does it mean to be

authentic and what are some of the

examples of what this might look like in

sort of uh maybe everyday life if not

just you know keeping it rooted within

what we see at peaks in that regard and

we can go either way whoever’s excited

here fire away

i will i um i mean i use the term true

north um with clients and a lot of times

that um kind of opens the door of like

wow no one’s no one’s asked me what my

true north is um and you know and how

like it seems like that should be for

everybody’s right because i’m on the

dial of a compass north is north um

right and we all gotta head that

direction and it’s not agreed upon um

and so

um you know for someone to show up

authentically i think in in both

positive and negative ways it’s it’s a

sense of feeling accepted for who you

are um you know from something as small

as like just hey how are you and being

able to answer that question

authentically um right i don’t have to

tell you i’m good if i’m not good um and

if you know if i do that enough times

and i show up authentically then when i

am good you’ll believe it um and when i

say well you know i’m weathering the

weather

then you’ll believe it right

um but also in big ways to be able to if

that’s if that’s safe to do um then

maybe the next question is safe as well

and that i can start showing up and know

that i can be trusted and

that you could be trusted that you will

accept me and it’s safe to be authentic

and show up as who i am

yeah

yeah so i i mean i think i i love that i

i completely agree with that right like

sort of learning incrementally that it’s

okay to be authentic that it’s okay to

show up i think so many times we hear

whether it’s from family friends or

again like society writ large

all of these messages about who we

should be based upon what

folks around us think we we are

categorized as right and so

i think the tendency over time is to

begin to pare ourselves down to fit into

these narrower and narrower boxes um to

hide certain aspects of ourselves if

our maybe our family has told us those

are wrong or those aren’t okay um and

the more we do that the further away we

get from our true north from ourselves

and that doesn’t feel good right it

doesn’t feel good and so we’re living

out our daily lives in in speech and

behavior

in ways that don’t feel true to us

um but are instead like placating those

around us and and these ideas of who

we’ve been told we should be

and that’s a separation of self from

self

yeah yeah absolutely and so what does it

look like when people begin to move away

from their authentic selves and how does

this happen you know so i can imagine a

family is sitting at home

maybe noticing that you know

johnny in a certain example behaves in a

certain way when we come at him in this

way and then something changes in that

process are there you know other

telltale signs maybe that you know

family systems at home or those within

you know the you know political

landscape or otherwise or however it’s

being absorbed through the lens here at

finding peaks uh for which uh you know

they can notice when uh a person is

moving away from their authentic selves

or you know what do those tripwires look

like yeah i think that’s different for

everyone um i if i can just reference

you know a family meeting we just sat on

and it was interesting that when we were

talking about relapse and what relapsed

warning signs are

it was you know most of them are like oh

it’s very clear they isolate and they

shut down and they stop responding and

um and it was interesting that one

person was like yeah no that’s actually

my you know how i notice is my son you

know my child um does the opposite and

so you know to speak to like that’s

maybe 90 of the warning signs of

depression um but sometimes it’s the

opposite that if that is their normal

and they’re normally quiet and reserved

that all of a sudden they’re coming out

of their shell and um and it’s not

looking healthy in that way um that

they’re you know have too much energy

and are way too social um then that’s

the warning sign and so i you know i

think it’s like you know when you know

someone in their healthy state um and

then what is what is happening when they

are unhealthy um is different for all of

us so

um you know i think for me my my true

north obviously we just finished talking

like everyone says i’m secure right so

you know when i start saying i’m feeling

a little nervous um i’m having a little

hesitancy and um you know and and it may

sound appropriate and normal and people

can relate to it but when someone looks

at me and says that’s not something you

usually say what’s going on

um right so then it feels like oh

then i know i’m it’s safe to be

authentic yeah it’s safe that these

people are okay to tell that i’m upset

or anxious or you know having some

insecurities um

yeah one of the

uh and we’ll get to your side of this as

well kimberly of course but you know an

example that you know comes to mind for

me is i’m thinking about a past patient

at peaks recovery centers and this

individual suffered from a significant

mental health disorder and there’s a uh

a family gaining knowledge about this

disorder learning it in real time trying

to figure out a path forward to um make

this the best outcome possible and at

the same time

dad in this regard is really calling on

sun to you know sort of get out of the

basement inevitably at the end of the

day and get a job this sort of societal

norm right that you have to be working

but for this individual working in the

world is going to look entirely

different and out of that it feels like

it it that’s the societal norm tension

pulling on a major you know an authentic

a piece of authenticity for the

individual in the way that this

individual’s experiences in the world

isn’t

isn’t always going to give him an

opportunity to be the best

uh that he can be in the strict sense of

a 40 hour work week as a societal norm

and there’s still this sort of negative

tone in the background right of like you

know

tie the bootstraps up and get out there

and get into the workforce and get out

of the basement and it’s those types of

things that i just wanted to create a a

an example of and and get your feedback

on and real on that um

is is that kind of correctly what we’re

looking at here is sort of a

even if it’s a benign example at least

an example of kind of tension that’s

created between the norms and where the

person is authentically living their

life i think it certainly can be

absolutely you know the thing that comes

to mind for me and and this is where i

think particularly the clinical team has

their

work cut out for them is that a lot of

times these these messages and wherever

they’re coming from whether it’s

television and other media or family or

anything they begin

so

so early on in life and they occur so

frequently

that i think a lot of times

folks who are coming in clients who are

coming into peaks like they may be

unaware right like that water they may

be unaware of these sort of messages

they’ve internalized and the ways those

messages have caused them to sort of

rearrange the parts of themselves

away from being that authentic self so

part of i think the brilliant work of

the clinical team is to kind of find

where those might be and and a lot of

times i think

that’s where that’s where a lot of the

issue lies in terms of you know why i

may have started using substances or why

i fell you know so deeply into a

depression and of course it’s not

causality isn’t

clean and sharp right but but these may

have to do with it right and how can we

figure out what messages you were

receiving about who you experienced

yourself to be authentically

um but then we’re told like that’s not

okay in whatever way or knowing that

doesn’t fit me right i’m not going to be

able to work a 40 hour work week or you

know i don’t feel comfortable

wearing those sorts of clothes or

whatever the case may be

but feeling as though you’re sort of

squeezed and distilled into this into

like a pressure cooker

yeah

i think i see it um what i love about

families and working with families is so

often i will see

because we will work with with an

individual before we really do some of

the family at least the intense family

work um and so i will meet this person

on you know completely different terms

than anybody else knows them you know

certainly in the therapy session you get

um generally a lot of authenticity um

you know and and if you if you’re doing

it right right yeah

that’s the ideal yeah not to toot your

own horn but if you do it right you do

it right you know i can’t say that i

always do it right so i know when it’s

done right because i’m like oh here it

is right um that you know you you put

them back in the family environment even

if it’s just you know a family on the

screen and i’ll see a different person

and so that is really valuable also you

know afterwards to sort of um talk about

that and like wow you showed up

completely different when these other

people were present what’s going on

there um and they can you know then they

can speak to it and oftentimes they

don’t even realize that until you’re

like you you even sat differently you

spoke use different words you even said

the exact opposite of what you told me

yesterday um right and you know and and

so when you when you’re able to point

that out safely and and

gently um people can start realizing

like i do speak differently in these

realms and um and it doesn’t and this is

why i do it and so being able to kind of

point out i was like well is that

because yesterday you were someone that

didn’t feel good like did i create a

space where you felt like you had to

tell me

what i wanted to hear because that

happens in a therapy session right in in

the teacher session in any kind of

session um you know or is there

something going on that these people

expect something from you and um and

and it’s really beautiful sometimes when

you can bring them together and and have

a you know parents say well i thought i

was promoting something that was true to

you right i had no idea like you said

you wanted to do this ten years ago i

was just promoting it this whole time

and like well i changed my mind eight

years ago um right and they just never

learned how to have a conversation about

how to be real with each other and um

and be authentic and and have a person

say i i didn’t know my my person would

support me if i changed or if i was

different um and then you know that’s

the good case scenario

absolutely where both sides sort of come

to this like conclusion this reality

that like i was unaware of this and i

was unaware of this and here we were in

these roles yeah right without kind of

realizing what was going on yeah and

then know that like it wasn’t you know

wasn’t a you problem it wasn’t a meat

problem it was this communication

problem and all along like you know

depression has there’s this gap right

when we don’t speak and live

authentically um there’s a gap between

who we you know are supposed to be and

are expected to be and and who we really

want to be and who where our true north

is and that gap has to be filled um and

it gets filled with depression it gets

filled with anxiety it gets filled with

trauma um and substances fill it really

effectively um for a time yeah

so that our our viewers out there aren’t

uh before we dive into uh responsibility

of treatment programming and cultural

competency uh for the sake of our

viewers so they don’t run to google and

think i got to be a therapist to

communicate with my loved one in this

regard and to be tactful in that way you

know what are um

what’s some advice we can give to family

systems about how to explore this openly

you know as a topic where they see

tension within the individual uh

regarding authenticity and maybe its

authenticity is on their part as well

too you know being curious comes to mind

and being inquisitive asking questions

first versus making statements about

what we’re looking at um but not being

the therapist i don’t want to steal the

show you know what are some some advice

that we can give to these family systems

in support of better connecting uh

tissues between them and their loved

ones

that’s a that’s that’s a good question

that’s the whole family

that wasn’t on the questionnaire that

was that was left that was no i i think

um you know a great a great place to

start is absolutely the curiosity right

um but also

i do think it’s important sometimes for

even even if it feels implied or or

whatever the case may be from what your

communication is like with each other

but to say

um you know really put forth i i i want

to be here for you and i want to hear

about your experience in the world i

want to know what you’re going through

and what you’ve been through and i’m i’m

willing to have that conversation you

know um and i i do think sometimes we

think that’s implied with whoever we’re

interacting with and it isn’t always

right a person may may be feeling unsafe

to be authentic about themselves or

their experience or something and and it

doesn’t mean either side did anything

wrong it just kind of is the way it is

but to hear

you know i

i want to know what’s going on with you

and i i you know i’m curious about that

i want to hear about your experience and

um i think is important

just as a starting point yeah

and i think also to be able to relate to

that um that if there is you know if you

sense that there is some moment that

your person is um someone you love your

partner whoever that is um

may be struggling with anxiety or

depression or substance use um you know

or experienced a trauma to be able to

say like you know it’s safe to talk to

me um i accept that there’s something

going on that i don’t understand and i

really want to understand um and then

when you hear something when you see

that you know change or that shift um

then to be able to relate it and say

yeah you know i there’s pieces of me

that i don’t share yeah um and so i know

what it’s like um and actually i

probably fill a role that is expected

from me as well yeah um that i didn’t

mean to hand down to you right like i

was just passing this down and um you

know we use these terms and treatment

you know called family at least i do and

family legacies you know like sometimes

that that feels like a inheritance or

right like you know you’re you’re taking

the trophy off the shelf and handing it

down but there’s also family legacies of

you know don’t say what you feel and

family legacies of um you know play the

part and you know do this when people

are watching right um and that those are

valuable probably survival tools um most

often um at least in you know in in

culture um it was was a survival tool

and now that society has changed or

generations have changed or you know

families are melding it it no longer

fits it no longer works and um and you

know we give individuals permission to

not pick up that legacy

and then be able to communicate to the

people in their lives to say hey this

this is who you are but it’s not who i

choose to be and i hope you accept me

for that yeah beautiful and if um you

know for family systems out there as

well too uh watching this uh today uh

appreciated first and foremost and

secondly as well too if we if you find

yourself jammed up in these moments and

not feeling like the even if you’re open

as you both have put it to hey i’m here

for you and i want to listen i want to

be involved and i want to embrace what

you what your authentic self is how do i

do that if you feel like

that that isn’t getting you where you

want to go certainly i think the next

stage of that is

how can i help you get in front of

somebody for which you can explore your

authentic self to help communicate with

me as a family system and so forth so

always keep in mind professional

counselors out there in the world

you know peers and so forth sometimes

it’s just more comfortable to speak to

someone else in that regard and i uh out

of that i think i just want to

give families some grace in this because

it’s not always easy to navigate these

situations especially when you pile on a

depression anxious or sud diagnosis on

top of that

as well too so

switching gears slightly i appreciate

you guys feeling the left field question

there but what is the role and

responsibility of a treatment program in

regards to nurturing authenticity so the

individual arrives at peaks and how do

we get that right

we ask

lots of questions and we keep asking

questions

and then we check in

to make sure that we are um

answering the questions and responding

to those questions so i think you know

most agencies especially in mental

health and addiction world have a

question at intake of like tell me about

your culture and how can we you know

support it in any kind of way and then

um i think oftentimes the program takes

over and there’s kind of a forget if

there’s a really big moment or someone

who knows how to advocate for themselves

i think there’s a sense of respect for

that um but if it’s but if there’s not

safe to be authentic in your culture um

i think there’s a kind of implied like

oh well they’ll let us know if we need

to do something different right um and

if you know if you if you take someone

who’s lived their entire life and not a

safe space of letting people know um

then that is that in and of itself is

disrespectful to their culture or if

they come from a culture that doesn’t do

that that um that frowns upon that you

know and and waits for the questions

right

um you know and so i think making space

at intake certainly is valuable but then

recognizing as it shows up um knowing

that if if someone is struggling in in

any particular environment um that it’s

it’s likely the environment

and not the person um right and i mean

sometimes it is the person but most

likely they are responding to something

in their environment um and you know and

so if if we are a treatment provider we

are the environment and we have control

over that and we can navigate it

and we have the power and staff and

ability and experience

to kind of put down our own stuff

and be able to say this person is

vulnerable this person is seeking

treatment

and this person deserves a little leeway

and and gentleness um in this area and

maybe we don’t have to force our our

program into them maybe it’s about them

you know opening up in our program and

allowing us to learn from what they have

to offer absolutely absolutely

i i agree right the questions need to

continue the curiosity needs to continue

and and that a lot of times that’s on us

that falls on us as peak staff

i think

the other piece of it is is for us to

continue

uh excavating the ways that our own

cultures whatever they be you know

affect us and inform our implicit biases

or our beliefs about the world our

belief systems because the more we know

about ourselves and about those things

right the more likely we are to be able

to help a client come in and see the

water the water so to speak right um

i think

um

and and

empowering them to tell that story right

like you were saying i mean

we we may get to the point where we’re

assuming well because you come from this

culture then right if this then that um

and i think that we let them lead the

way instead all the while being mindful

of like you know biases implicitly or

otherwise that we may have and and

continue like to continue to be willing

to learn

um and willing to show up for them and

honestly a big part i think for me is

to be able to be receptive

when a client or anyone else says

that was not a line or here’s why that

didn’t feel good because this was said

to me you know when i was younger or you

know i didn’t like this right and to be

okay to kind of

resist that temptation to immediately

get defensive and to say okay like i

want to take a look at this i’m sorry

that that hurt you right and i i’m still

learning too um and that’s the calling

out versus right or calling in versus

calling out i think um but to

continually be aware and be willing to

grow even at times when it’s

uncomfortable

for us i celebrate those moments and i

say thank you

it’s one of the first conversations i

have with my clients i said i want you

to know that you have every right to

challenge me and i encourage you to do

that and that may not feel safe and that

might not have been safe in the past but

please if i get it wrong i’m just a good

guesser really i have all these letters

after my name but that all they mean is

i’m a good guest

um and if i guess wrong it’s i’m not

doing either one of us any good right um

you know and so you know if i know

someone is you know tends to be quiet

and withdrawn or um you know internal in

their experience um then you know then i

will be checking in be like is this

conversation okay i i just challenged

something for you and that may seem easy

for me but i’m wondering how it is for

you um and sometimes you can yeah no i

that was never okay in my house or you

know that well it’s okay here um you

know and i want it to be okay in in

other places in your world maybe it’s

never gonna be okay in your family and

that’s okay

um how do we help you feel safe in those

places where you can’t be authentic

and accept that but not have to go to

you know extremes or you know experience

inc you know incredible depression or

anxiety

because of that thing you can’t control

but also find places in your life where

you get to

allow yourself to ask good questions or

give good feedback yeah and people will

celebrate it and say thank you thank you

for helping me grow right

well pam i know you and your husband are

probably our biggest fans at finding

peaks uh and watching all all of the

episodes and you know through our

episodes one of the things that i love

doing within this host seat is uh

calling uh well i’m changing my language

from calling out to calling on an

industry to disrupt its behaviors and to

think more dynamically about what we’re

doing each and every day and the

conversation between you two just now

just reminds me of

uh how dynamic our patient demographic

is at any given time

and uh it’s also having me think about

all of the downward pressure that we

experience as an organization whether it

is social or societal and cultural norms

whether it’s the insurance company

telling us to diligently document and

write these notes to their standards and

we have a curriculum and then we got

people coming out of detox into the

curriculum it feels like you know we’re

on this sort of merry-go-round ride and

insert the client each uh within any

given moment on to this merry-go-round

that is our curriculum and our 45 day

model

it’s

i think it it exposes how

how difficult it is to

maintain that focus and to sit with the

individual and draw

them into the experience rather than say

welcome to the experience let’s go

in that regard so how do we go about

ensuring programs like peaks don’t end

up making cultural competency a website

catch phrase

and how do we actually live out

uh cultural competency each and every

day because you know me and my you know

corner office in the i you know uh

at the peaks in the iop program you know

parents might ask me something like

would you guys you know embrace cultural

competency and of course like i read

books yes we do that but at the same

time right it’s going to change and

shift within the environment at all

times and so how does it get from me

making a statement about it to making it

true within the organization and then

making sure that it’s energized at all

moments

maybe maybe two you’re about to tell me

what we’re doing what we’re doing wrong

but

i think we incorporate it into peak’s

staff culture continually right and not

just on a quarterly basis or something

but that’s a continual conversation that

we have amongst ourselves and i think

it’s a great idea to incorporate in into

curriculum that clients are going

through as well right

and it will speak to them there’s no

doubt about that it will speak to them

because it is their lived experience in

whatever way

um

and i i think that

if you continually commit to growing and

learning in those ways

you’re never going to be doing it wrong

you might not always get it exactly

right but that’s part of it right

there’s always more to learn there’s

never a monopoly on the information

about every culture in all time and

place and

continuing to stay curious

continuing to be willing to let defenses

down and say

you know what i didn’t get that right

and that’s okay and i apologize i’m

sorry um i’ll i’ll continue to try to do

better

for staff and and and everyone involved

um

you know it’s a it’s a thing that i feel

in our culture and i think there’s

improvement uh there’s room for

improvement as there always will be

um but i feel pretty proud of

you know what’s there now absolutely

yeah same um i you know i i definitely

will say like this this happens on and

it’s certainly happening in a developing

way um you know i come from um working

in social services where like it is is

so very valuable and it’s so very

present in court systems and dhs systems

that um i think when i came in here

there was a bit of a buffer um from some

obvious you know structural issues and

um you know and so you know i thought oh

i i won’t be dealing with that anymore

like that was a passing thought it

didn’t last very long um right

and i’m like oh

it’s in the private sector too okay

gotcha um so really quickly i was like

there’s a need for this um in a lot of

ways um but i i also think that like

from a staff perspective right you know

what i love about you know our program

um you know i know that might sound like

a commercial but i love our program

um yeah what i love about our program is

like you know we we bring in um people

who have these lived experiences and so

i’m constantly referring to the ccas and

the residential managers and um you know

and saying like hey these are your

experts like they i have the license but

they have the degree um they have this

experience that i can’t speak to and um

and vice versa and so it it makes for a

great conversation in front of clients

and with clients um you know whenever we

are resolving problems

you know and then there’s also this you

know kind of parallel interaction that

happens um so the clients also get to

see you know like hey

you did a thing you said a word and i’m

i’m not okay with it um you know and but

i’m wondering you know where that comes

from you know tell me tell me why this

is you know part of your culture you

know maybe there’s something i’m not

understanding and um and to be able to

say are you aware that you know that

that hurt me or that might hurt some

people when when you use that language

um right and that in that environment

making it natural and organic um you

know i think right after um we did the

cultural comp that night or that

afternoon someone said something um that

you know it was kind of side issue it’s

not the general you know everybody knows

you don’t comment on these five factors

right

of culture

right um but not realizing that culture

is you know in what i eat culture is in

the shoes i wear cultures and you know

like the um you know so many aspects

that you you will never know from your

perspective what is culture to me you

have to ask you have to be aware and i

have to tell you yeah um

you know so to make a flippant kind of

remark and say hey are you aware

and and immediately seeing that like oh

i did the thing and i’m like thanks for

that thanks for that you know

that’s valuable um i think on a you know

just a a yeah a

company culture absolutely um it’s just

one of the ways i could probably go on

for hours on all the other ways yeah we

can implement it yeah

big topic and we’re going to keep doing

this together i love this experience

with you both so far and i think one of

the you know one of the things that uh

comes to mind in in hearing you both

just now as well too is that you know

societal and cultural norms you know

exist across you know the lgbt iq

acronym across the way

we see sexuality within culture there’s

a variety of different ways to kind of

go about but also within substance use

disorder and

mental health primary settings there are

these cultural norms that are created

about how we see the addict or how we

see the individual coming in and i think

one of the common

things that i’ve seen that we’ve been an

error of is when an individual comes in

kind of the first thing you think

because addiction is such a powerful

word and it’s so big in our society is

like what drugs you know or alcohol

brought you into this setting and i’ve

seen it on several occasions whether you

know the individual says i’m not here

for any of that like

our first response is

there’s a there’s a disorder in its

substances and what does that look like

and then we’re kind of taking back you

know trying to figure that out i’m just

curious if you can speak to that a

little bit

within your experience and in the

environment at peaks

yeah i mean i i think that’s a perfect

example of how we try to fit a system

through you know the person um is you

know and when someone comes in as you

know mental health and saying i have

depression um you know and it feels very

othered right like i don’t belong here

because all you guys talk about and your

program talks about and um you know and

i come from mental health primary like

that’s where you know my um where my

passion started um and in fact i you

know sort of rejected the substance

abuse uh realm

um you know and and partly because of my

culture um right and and not realizing

how much culture played a part in my own

biases and my own insecurities of saying

i can’t possibly be helping people in

that realm because i haven’t resolved

some things myself um and then having

some really great people in my world

going maybe you should resolve those

things right

dang it um it is a nice mirror society

here in the treatment world um there’s

always a reflection um and so you know

to be able to hear someone say like it’s

okay for me

to you know drink some champagne at my

wedding it is perfectly fine and you’re

not gonna stop me and if you try to then

you’re gonna disconnect me and you’re

gonna lose the opportunity to help me

manage my depression

um by trying to fixate on something that

you feel is a problem rather than see

what i feel is a problem right because

this will be a problem if it’ll if it’s

going to be a problem right um and if

you’re not ready to look at it then it’s

not my business to make you look at it

it’s my business to hear what you see is

the problem um and and how you feel like

you can move forward with it and so if

someone says don’t put me in a sober

home um because i plan on drinking i

just and and i plan on managing my

depression

it doesn’t matter what my view is it

doesn’t matter what my experience or my

education tells me what matters that

this person is saying this is what i

want help with and and it’s our job to

say okay let’s find you let’s look

outside our own boxes and find you an

aftercare plan that meets where you say

your next step is because maybe 10 steps

down the road you’ll be different but

today what’s most important is your next

step yeah

absolutely

yeah i don’t think

i don’t think it’s up to us just in the

same way that it’s not up to us to

decide what a person’s culture looks

like or what it means to them right if

they’re coming to you and saying

this is not what i’m here for or i know

that i came for this reason and not this

reason

i think i think it behooves us to

respect that right and then sort of

develop a plan for their treatment based

upon that i think it also offers some

opportunity a couple clients come to

mind

that came in

as mental health primary and um we’re

sort of like i i i’m not like them right

that kind of idea and that’s an

opportunity to say okay let’s talk about

that right

that calling in that calling and let’s

look at that like why are we othering

you know from this group as well

and and good for us to learn there’s

also been a couple instances of clients

who come in and they certainly um

[Music]

have had issues with diagnosed uh

substance use disorders and and saying

you know what what brings you here um

and they will say well it all started

when da da da da right and they may be

being treated for substance use

disorders and be completely on board

with that but but to them that’s not the

crux of the issue right and they they

want to they want to let you know what

what they think was sort of the impetus

for this thing at least where it started

back when and um to be able to listen to

that and hear that right and understand

that not everyone conceptualizes

substance use disorders and mental

health disorders in the same way that we

tend to you know on a larger scale i

think is is always good more opportunity

to learn it’s always awesome um i mean i

i just love i love a lot about the

treatment program i’m like i just i love

to provide treatment um i love groups i

love individuals um but sitting in a in

a group and um having the topic be like

relapse cycle right or you know the the

cognitive behavioral therapy triangle of

you know alcohol addiction um and and

you can get a lot of people on board in

that group like yeah i know exactly how

this is gonna go and i know and i can

give you all the answers but you’re

gonna lose a few people yeah um you know

and especially if alcohol isn’t their

drug of choice you know if it if it is

something other than that opiates or um

you know and then the person with

depression is like let me know when you

guys are done right um you know but then

when you frame it through you know like

if someone you know looks at me and says

well you know pam are you in recovery

i’ll look at them and say anger is my

drug of choice

and everybody in the room can get on

board with that yeah right so we bring

them all together to say it doesn’t

matter what substance you use you know

if i punch someone how is that any

better

right than you drinking and you know and

so what i know is that we all have to

manage our emotions can we just agree on

that can we come to terms with that and

um and that’s always very powerful when

you know because i’ve done the the cbt

cycle for addiction and have half of

everybody on board and it’s really

helpful to that one person that really

wants to understand their drinking

patterns um but then i will follow it up

with like well let’s let’s see how this

matches with the depression cycle and

then everybody in the room you know

especially the person who is struggling

with the drinking cycle be like yeah me

too right yeah actually that’s the

bigger problem like it always was yeah

yeah absol

that’s fantastic and beautiful and i

think um

good glimpses into like a group setting

and how you corral all the differences

so that people feel uh invited into the

discussion versus like yeah just tell me

when this is over and a day of treatment

is lost in that regard right

and

many of the things uh that you guys just

had this conversation about as well too

like i just i’m dying to prod at the

industry but um i may get clipped uh

from the editors in the in the studio

here so um so i’m gonna avoid that today

we’ll come back more thoughtful so i

don’t just jab the industry in the wrong

ways but i want to invite you guys back

in the future because this is a big

topic and there’s a lot of ways in which

we can discuss it invite people into

this conversation and so forth and but

before i take us out on this 50th

episode uh in our exit here daryl davis

loretta ross we want to create a few

links for individuals that will be

available

for all the kids out there on the social

media and the families watching us

as well too on the facebook because only

the elders use facebook but in that

regard uh what what do we want to say

about these two individuals and uh

what do we want them thinking about

maybe as they go and explore these you

know youtube channels and ted talks

uh yeah i would just google those names

um you know like daryl i listened to a

podcast of daryl davis and and the way

that you know he is a a blues man from

the south um who managed to

get ku klux klan members to hand over

their robes and that to me with love

yeah with love no violence no hostility

no judgment like he just showed up and

kept showing up saying help me

understand what you’re saying help me

understand why you hate me help me

understand why you hate you know all of

this help me understand why you do what

you do um and did it enough times by

befriending people who hated him who

were out to get him who quite likely you

know created hostility and violence and

and people that he knew um and he did it

because he genuinely wanted to

understand that the the act of being

curious and wanting to understand was

more powerful than being hated and and

being criticized and um and and quite

frankly being traumatized um by their

experiences and so um that is something

to always look up to like as a person

whose anger is their drug of choice um

i know how hard that is to do he’s a

better man than me um and then loretta

just you know says it so beautifully and

just how like when i call you out i miss

an opportunity and i disconnect us yes

um and that teaches neither one of us

anything

but when i call you in

i gain an opportunity and you gain an

opportunity to be able to tell me the

other side

and it works it works for people who are

being oppressed to say hey help me

understand what’s happening for you

right now help me understand why you

would say that help me understand why

you see it this way because i’m

genuinely curious and when you lean in

people lean in right and when you push

away people push away and um and it also

works for the oppressor when there’s

someone in the room who is being

derogatory who is saying a joke that is

you know certainly off color to be able

to and rather than humiliate them and

shame them which is unfair certainly in

treatment some centers it’s unethical um

you know and so we have to bring them

into the conversation too and say hey

are you even aware

of you know how that affects people and

and if we have a relationship then i get

to start it hopefully this person is

hearing it um and then maybe eventually

they get to learn that skill of being

able to stand up for themselves and

build a connection with someone that

they never would have had the

opportunity to absolutely i used to tell

you know my students that

you will never get in trouble for

ignorance and i think too often that’s

that’s our snap you know way of

responding when situations like this

occur and if

you know

if you don’t know you don’t know right

and the the the goal should be

to make people aware right to increase

understanding rather than to say you

know you said this and you made this

mistake and now you’re you’re you’re

canceled right your parents canceled

right um i i think you know

this perfectly exemplifies kind of what

we’ve talked about here right to go into

to to clan meetings and to say help me

understand right and certainly that’s

you know that’s not the responsibility

of every person who’s a member of an

oppressed group to go you know and do

this right but but to it there had to be

a realization on his part that this is

cultural messaging that they’ve received

they’re behaving from messages they’ve

received culturally and it may not have

anything to do with who they are

authentically and once they know me

right once i become an individual and

we’ve connected on that basis

i cease to be just part and parcel of a

of a general grouping right it’s more

difficult to hate someone

um

or to hold beliefs about them um when

they’re just part of this

sort of uh gauzy

group of people right when you really

get to know someone and and and touch

base with them authentically um

that’s where the magic happens yeah

right absolutely right it’s one thing

just to

cancel

from the cancel cultural lens to say

you’re a racist versus help me reconcile

what you just said because i know you in

this sort of way yes right absolutely

and i believe in your ability to

to connect i believe in your ability i

don’t think this is coming from a hatred

please i think this is coming from a

place that you just don’t understand

and i don’t understand yeah so let’s

let’s go through this together and come

side by side with people so i mean my

certainly my intention um you know in

understanding and you know building the

committee you know with my past employer

and being able to bring it into this

employer and say hey this is important

and i you know i i’m okay if if you

don’t like me for saying this but i’m

gonna keep saying it because it’s my job

and it’s part of my commitment um you

know is is to really come from a place

if i knew i was raised

um you know to kind of confront things

and that works sometimes um but more

often it shuts people down and then i

feel like i’ve just kind of ruined

relationships and so um be a you know a

teacher not a preacher um is right like

that if we can we can do that together

and learn together then you know then i

feel like i’m growing yeah that feels

good yeah absolutely all right

well thank you both so much for being

here for coming on board i think we’re

going to do this again i had a great

time nerves a little down now

you got the experience right it’s just

lights cameras and noises all that sort

of thing you two are fantastic you did a

wonderful job can’t wait to have you

back to continue to explore this topic

so that uh i can get a new opportunity

to jab the industry a little bit through

your both of your lenses there and uh so

for everybody viewers at home we hope

that this was an exceptional 50th

episode for you that it was thought

provoking insightful please check out

the links that we provided in regards to

daryl davis and loretta ross their ted

talks and podcasts are just brilliant

and

so finding peaks at peaksrecovery.com

if you want more insights or

opportunities to ask the these

two

professionals that are in front of me

right now more questions in the futures

send us

that feedback otherwise the facebooks

the twitters the instagrams the what

else are the kids the tick tock chris

burns everybody

look for chris burns on the tick tock

he’s loud he’s proud he’s excited let’s

go for recovery he might say until tech

until next time brandon burns signing

off so grateful to be here happy 50th

take care everybody