Episode 2

all right
here we are again for our second episode
of finding peaks uh talk show
and my name is brandon burns and i’m
joined here again by my colleagues and
friends
uh clinton nicholson and jason friesma
welcome back to the show guys
thanks brandon thank you for having me
so good to be here it’s a pleasure yeah
glad to glad to see your more authentic
selves are showing up in the second
episode
every show is a journey there we go and
we’re on it
um so coming into this episode uh over
the past week
um you know really surveying company
culture
and the ins and outs of what we do each
and every day
um uh the the milieu fluctuates
throughout each and every day in
attitudes about what’s in front of them
it could be the meal that’s in front of
them
it could be mainly the needs or the
things that we need to provide to
patient care to make this go well
but what i often find in delivering the
services
and building up a program to make things
well for the individual so they can
focus on themselves in their internal
recovery process
that we end up finding a lot of
distractions along the way sometimes our
cooking
by you know from our chef isn’t at the
level in which they would expect to see
it at
sometimes the pillow is just a little
bit too rough and different from home
and
distracts them from the recovery process
and
all of these things um seemingly get in
the way of recovery at times
even when they’re seemingly very small
situations and so
really just wanted to you know create a
discussion around
um you know for the viewers and for
families you know what are the
actual responsibilities of a treatment
center
and what do treatment centers need to do
to you know
bring clients in front of their recovery
journey and reduce those distractions
you know along the way so you know from
my position certainly i want to provide
a nutritious meal
to our patient demographic but at the
same time we’re not a restaurant and
that’s not why we’re in business to
create the best possible
five-star meal in that regard so though
it’s important to deliver those things i
just kind of wanted to walk through
maybe your thoughts around the purpose
of treatment
maybe how to reduce those distractions
but really how does a treatment center
properly engage the client in care
well the big question good lead in uh
it’s almost like
when i i think it’s it’s important for a
treatment center to provide for the
basic safety
of clients and to create um some space
for them to feel safe and be safe
from the things that were around them
but the things you listed like
uh food not being up to par or
um the pillow’s a little too firm it’s
almost like those are
maybe distractions from uh somebody
being on a on a recovery journey
oftentimes during clinical process
or doing a counseling process or
recovery process
clients are uncomfortable and they’ll
take that internal discomfort
uh emotional internal discomfort and
then uh project it on to other things
and uh really zero in on those things
now it doesn’t mean that the client
isn’t experiencing these
complaints uh with all sincerity uh
and i do think it’s the the treatment
organization and the clinical team’s job
almost to
to bring the focus back on like okay
your pillow’s uncomfortable how are you
uncomfortable
yeah see that’s a compliment yeah yeah
you’re welcome absolutely yeah
no i agree i think that um first and
foremost we’re there to provide safety
and but the point of providing safety
for the clients
is actually so that we can then disrupt
them right so that we can then create uh
allow them to experience discomfort in a
way that
is where they feel stable and secure and
safe enough to work through that and
process through that so
if we were to sit there and and work to
try to
put out every fire or quell every every
sort of um
little nagging issue that somebody comes
up with then we’re actually not really
preparing the client to go back out into
the world and deal with disruption
because that’s what life is it’s just
constant the sort of constant state of
being disrupted and
um when you’re in active addiction part
of that the role of the addiction and
the role of the substance use is to sort
of
uh kind of nullify that or numb that out
and now
we want clients to to actually embrace
that again to
to sort of walk back into being awake
and being and feeling disrupted and
feeling
um sort of disjointed in their life and
so
being able to like jason said help
people uh
become aware of you know well yeah yeah
the pillow is uncomfortable so why are
you uncomfortable again that’s bringing
that awareness back inside of them
and um allows them to sort of move
through that and develop the skills
needed to sort of
uh kind of face life on life storms yeah
i think one of the major considerations
is to create that environment of safety
um you know especially in influencing
the business and growing it out
you know one of the things i always talk
to families about when i get the
opportunity to get them on the phone is
that you know over the course of
you know therapy we talk about what
triggers you to use drugs and alcohol
i’m driving down the you know the road
i get a phone call from a friend they
say let’s go to the movie and i think
oh when i go to the movies it triggers
me to want to smoke pot or
you know shoot over whatever it is that
makes that a more enticing environment
but if we’ve been using drugs and
alcohol for a period of five to ten
years we’re talking about
not just going to the movies triggering
you know usage of pot we’re potentially
talking about
hundreds if not thousands of potential
triggers and it seems
though that the intention of the
treatment center is to provide a safety
or space of safety for the individual
coming in
one of the benefits of coming in and
sort of not checking all
boxes along the way is that we actually
get to trigger them in the process
and get to see their real world
experiences sort of take place in front
of us
and then get to you know work with them
through that well yeah
i’ll push back just a little i don’t
like we don’t
maybe intentionally trigger right
clients like we don’t
i don’t think it’s healthy to like set
the jack daniels bottle on the middle of
the
group and be like okay everybody you
know everybody smell it and
what comes up for you um because the the
the triggers are internal right most of
those like the the movie analogy that
you made like that makes a lot of sense
but what is it about that nostalgia
feeling or that
like sense of comfort or getting out of
your house or whatever it is
um in any length of time um
in in setting the right tone in a
treatment center like all those things
are going to come up clients are going
to feel triggered through no effort of
our own that’s just going to come up
and and we do hopefully
at peaks provide a good um
well prompted times like pushing people
into discomfort and
and when is the pillows discomfort not
about the pillow when is it about your
own discomfort or what
what is increasing your fear making you
want to be in control of everything over
here
um those are kind of those prompts i
just want to
clarify that that that you know like
just being sober for 30 days and being
in in a recovery program is going to
provide all of its own triggers and
prompts uh
necessary for good clinical growth yeah
i agree i think that um
generally speaking like again life is a
ball of triggers
right so yeah um and in a recovery
environment
the one thing that i would actually say
that’s maybe a little bit different
than jason is so one of the sort of
phenomenon of the recovery journey or
especially in uh like a residential
level of care is
this idea or experience of the pink
cloud where for the first time in
maybe years in your life you’re sober
you have clarity
again you feel safe because we’ve done
our job as a facility and as a program
to help you feel safe to
help you build community to feel
supported to have access to people that
care about you and listen to you
and want to be there to support you and
then all of a sudden there’s this like
overwhelming feeling of like i’m great
you know like everything is good i feel
fantastic you know i’m ready to go do
this
and we’re talking like we’re on day 14
of their actual recovery and so
being able to um clinically kind of
predict that
and also develop strategies clinical
strategies that are intentionally built
to sort of disrupt that
process and sort of that that sort of
false sense of security or at least um
that uh a sense of security that is much
more fragile than it feels or is
perceived
i do think is really important i think
that um you know
my personal belief is that if it’s not
messy it’s not recovery you know
and sometimes we do need to go in there
it’s not like we’re purposefully giving
people like you know really
crappy pillows you know or like only
feeding them taco bell or something like
that but we’re doing
something yeah yeah no offense
taco bell is not a sponsor so um yeah uh
but you know being able to provide
you know like not too long ago we did uh
you have this sort of experiential
interventions of like something like
capture the flag where all of a sudden
something that is a fairly benign
game that kids play becomes this like
extreme life experience where you have
competition
and conflict and communication issues
and
feelings of insecurity come up i mean so
you really
you know to speak to jason’s point again
you don’t really have to do a whole lot
right like because it will sort of come
up naturally but at the same time
to some degree treatment has to be
designed
towards uh to to provide a little bit of
discomfort or at least motivate that to
the degree that people can continue to
grow and not get stuck in a false sense
of safety
yeah yeah absolutely and i think you
know facilities
purpose and goal is to provide quality
care and create that safety environment
but it seems like discomfort’s a really
important piece of the process
and at times uh through challenging
uh you know clients in that regard that
um that’s what creates sort of the
clinical fervor and motivation for
change right
yeah absolutely and i think
so it is this balance right that that we
do provide this safe space
for there to be this disruption and then
helping clients see that they can
resolve it hopefully on their own that
they can learn to regulate
their emotions in that way and and
tolerate some distress in their life and
not
decompensate i often find
that when i’m working with clients like
they’ll they’ll have a feeling good or
bad happy sad mad glad whatever it is
and in some ways their their
process is usually i have i’m feeling a
feeling i need to do something about it
usually that alone can be triggering
like i
am feeling happy i need to celebrate
that or i’m feeling
afraid so i need to do something about
that and sometimes it’s just about
helping people slow down and
and let emotions resolve on their own
and i think providing that safety
uh when capture the flag stimulates some
sort of
response in people helping them have
that response and then also resolve it
and get to the other side and provide
that that net where we can kind of catch
them and
help them be safe and regulate that on
their own
absolutely so sounds like through
creating a safe environment we are
also creating discomfort along the way
and so now
johnny who’s in programming experiencing
discomfort whatever that discomfort is
and having a difficult time engaging in
therapy wants to pick up the phone call
mom
dad family member somebody say pick me
up this isn’t working i’m irritated i’m
frustrated this isn’t meeting my needs
what should we be telling the families
in this regard like what is their
responsibility in this process when they
get that phone call
and not just under you know that strict
criteria but what are they doing in the
background to
for themselves in the direction of their
loved ones care and how can a facility
support that well
preparing the family that johnny’s going
to call and say
you know in a few weeks when the he
falls off the pink cloud or is
his little bubble burst a little bit
like he’s going to get uncomfortable
we can predict that and
just like i said a minute ago when the
clients kind of have a feeling and they
think they need to do something about it
they’ve
oftentimes trained family members that
hey i’m feeling uncomfortable you need
to do something about it
and really helping people disconnect
from that and it is why
you know we we do tend to kind of make
sure that we we really
manage phone calls to families well
and in contact with families um because
usually there needs to be some healing
space for the family as well but we can
tell families like you
your job is just kind of hold firm and
honestly
get into your own recovery journey
whatever that might look like uh and
through whatever means necessary whether
it’s counseling or other
community or church type support
meetings and that sort of thing so
um because if we can predict that if we
if we can sit here and talk about it
then we certainly know it’s going to
happen
and then if a family knows that hey in
three weeks like you might get a call
that
they’re just regulated and they’ll be
they’ll complain about um
you know the the bread was too crunchy
today at breakfast and so i’m
i gotta go uh the family’s gonna be
prepared to be like um
cool and how about if you don’t leave
yeah right
yeah i mean this is the family guru over
here so he’s the
he’s the guy to ask yeah absolutely
uh no i i think jason’s spot on it
there’s a
tremendous amount of preparation and
communication that has to go on outside
of the actual residential world or
outside the actual facilities that the
actual client is working in i mean just
as much work is happening on the outside
as
there is on the inside and really
engaging families and prepping them to
hold these boundaries that are
like jason spoke to can be really
malleable because of the
the relationship the disease the sort of
dynamics that have occurred throughout
the the client’s active addiction where
there’s a sort of rescue moment that
step where the you know the parent feels
and
uh he hears the sort of call of their
child to be saved and
you know there’s that’s the instinct is
to go and save them and so being able to
sort of
dial that down or um help families kind
of push against that instinct or that
um is it requires a lot of work
you know like that’s a very intentional
thing that has to happen so
um and then for myself i also like to
prepare the clients for the fact that
hey by the way in about two weeks the
bread’s gonna feel it’s gonna taste
really crusty
yeah you know like you’re gonna have
this moment in your treatment arc
where you’re gonna wanna leave and
you’re gonna have so let’s explore all
of the different reasons why you would
think that you might want to leave you
know whether it’s your own families i
have kids i’ve got bills to pay i’ve got
a job i’ve you know i don’t like crusty
bread whatever it is
you know sort of prepping them as well
to be able to acknowledge these moments
when they happen before they do
yeah yeah and you know i one of the
families
who whose loved one recently went
through peak’s recovery
you know on the phone with her right as
he’s entering treatment she says
i just don’t know what i’m gonna do not
having my phone blown up all the time
with him being angry at me or
him asking for money for drugs or for
him asking for money to
for some strange story that took place
in his life or you know whatever the
case is and
it seems like in a way they become sort
of wrapped around the
trauma of addiction in that regard um
maybe for a lack of better words that i
you guys can better inform me well i’ll
use the words okay
the kids addicted to drugs the family’s
addicted to the kid being addicted to
drugs
it’s a very similar process right
absolutely powerlessness unmanageability
yeah all those same kind of processes
occur um and so recovery
is also really important to break that
absolutely and getting some sobriety
time and detox time if you will
from the drama yeah yeah absolutely yeah
addiction is a disease that permeates
all levels of family
all levels of relationships i mean it’s
something that
you know just the the person who is
engaging in substance use is not the
only person that is
struggling with addiction at that point
so i think being able to wrap around
families and wrap around
uh loved ones that have been struggling
with this disease and treating it just
like they are experiencing the same
level of crisis as um
as their loved one i think that that’s
really vital and really important yeah
yeah and out of those experiences of
intensity i think just
you know reminding families too that
they’re a part of this healing journey
directionally they’re getting their
healing in the background just as much
and should put you know a solid amount
of energy into that process as well too
whether
supported by our staff at a place like
you know peaks recovery centers or
beyond the walls through al-anon and
these sorts of things
um i think are quite promising so um
so yeah in that regard i know we’re
getting close to the edge of our time
here but just
one more aspect of this is what should
we be telling families about
the patient’s responsibility in this
what do they need to be focused on
going you know through the recovery
process be mindful of because to me
care is directional so what i’m stating
here is that
um what i’m trying to state is that
oftentimes you hear post recovery oh the
treatment program didn’t work for me
that you know spaghetti
meal didn’t work for me and that’s why i
left whatever the case might be
that there’s a challenge in there that
the facility could have done
better certainly maybe in those moments
but what is it maybe that
the client or the patient’s missing in
that moment because a big part of this
is their volitional participation and
staying focused and directional to
resolve
uh the current state that they’re in so
what do we got to
you know sort of educate the the patient
demographic on here about their
responsibility throughout this process
wow i guess i would say piggybacks a
little what clinton was saying is just
being able to predict
and describe the process that that a
removal of a substance does not mean
recovery
in fact it’s merely the beginning of a
much longer journey and being able to
say
you know you’re not going to get sober
and in two weeks everything’s fine with
your family
and your life’s coming back together and
your court issues are now over and
everything is great like
the there’s a lot to be committed
to as far as like kind of a longer term
process in a journey i would just say
predicting a journey
my nice little counselor speak you know
clean it up for me
i think um you know like the removal of
a substance the only sure thing that
that’s going to do is trigger the desire
to use substances right
so if you get to the why really quick
exactly
i mean so if you um and then the
majority
especially in early recovery that addict
mind that addict brain
i mean on a physiological level is just
going to do anything possible
say anything possible attached to
anything possible to make sure that that
that drive is is satiated you know and
so
uh just being really upfront about that
and really real
very realistic about that it’s you know
hey by the way you’re an addict so
you’re going to experience
cravings because you have a pretty
strong addiction and your brain is going
to tell you as you get more and more
uncomfortable that the only way i can do
this is by getting out of here to go use
and whatever means necessary
uh all the and again that’s when all of
a sudden the bread is crusty the pillows
are
uh are lumpy you know the the uh i don’t
know
you know the the steak wasn’t cooked
perfectly medium today you know whatever
the case may be all
your brain is going to going to attach
to anything and we’re going to be here
to stand by you while you ride that out
because that’s the most important part
is that in those moments you stay still
with us and that you allow us to support
you
yeah absolutely and i think day in and
day out you know at peaks
you know whether it’s 24 you know hours
of a stabilized you know
client that we sort of rinse wash repeat
throughout each and every day to
inform the patient of why they’re
experiencing that distress or walk
through that with them to reach back out
to the family to walk them through their
distress and so forth and
you know if anything i think here just
leaving you know the the viewers of the
show with the fact that um
you know addiction is a complex process
with many moving parts
and in addiction treatment centers i
think there are these three
really crucial components of it what the
facility does what the family is doing
in the background and what the patient
is doing within their care
and um yeah i just appreciate you guys
chiming in on this and um
thanks for joining us for our second
episode ever
uh at the finding peaks talk show and we
look forward to
uh next week’s episode and we’ll see you
all soon