Episode 49

empathy is knowing your own darkness

without that connection you don’t have

anything what’s the opposite of

addiction just freedom

hey everybody and welcome to another

fantastic episode of finding peaks here

today we got our chief clinical officer

and my co-host jason friesma also

licensed professional counselor

and to my left here we have one of our

amazing primary therapist morgan

mckinley licensed addiction counselor

welcome to the show

um where i bring on great professionals

but even better humans

so okay that’s my new thing

that’s my new thing man where chris

burns brings on great professionals but

even better humans let’s go all right so

and i also want to say happy easter for

those that celebrate

for those that don’t happy springtime

happy great weather season um yeah so

really excited to get going here in the

show

really looking forward to regrouping

and getting into some really good

conversation today and just really

grateful to have you both here so the

topic for today that i wanted to discuss

and we haven’t discussed it a lot on

finding peaks and it is our brilliant

curriculum um that i absolutely love and

when we’re walking through the

curriculum here at peaks we’re walking

through really good stuff really good

subject matter that affords people the

opportunity um to take a trip

from the north down south kind of into

the nervous system and make that million

mile march from head to heart and i

think our curriculum does that in a very

special way

through things like identity and purpose

grief and loss personal history

relationships

emotional emotional emotion emotional

identification and awareness substance

use and mental health substance use and

mental health and i love that and

something i like to point out too is

like in this curriculum

where we’re treating a lot of people who

cope with substances

it’s very interesting to me that in our

curriculum we barely touch on substance

use disorder

why is that jason

well it’s because

at peaks we look at substance use as

part of any other mental health issue

and

really it kind of um it’s an old thought

process i think to think that

co-occurring issues are substance use

over here mental health over here and

really

there’s a tremendous amount of overlap

in fact so much overlap it doesn’t even

really make a ton of sense

to create a huge distinction between the

two

and

you know i think about it in this way

too that like um

back when i was in private practice

people would ask me if i did anger

management and i’m like

well yeah because like it it comes from

wounded places and like

do i sit down with a curriculum and go

over it no but like

so all these mental health issues

whether it’s substance use or depression

anxiety

um whatever it may be our curriculum

works with it really well um

in that space of a tremendous amount of

overlap between all of those issues yeah

yeah that’s a beautiful like bridge that

we can create and morgan what have you

seen on your side of things at the

client level through kind of shifting

the verbiage that we use instead of

addiction and you know have you gotten

sober what is your substance use what’s

your drug of choice this is some of the

old verbiage that we used to use and i

think consequently a lot of the field

still uses but what have you seen

really at the client level in the work

that you the special work that you get

to do each and every day have you seen a

shift

and maybe it has to do with shame maybe

it has to do with insight yeah yeah i

think that i’ve not ever worked with a

client that

um

is just dealing with substance use

problems i think that

that’s more of like the symptom that a

lot of other treatment centers treat um

or try to address but really they’re not

getting at the root cause

it’s kind of my theory that not anybody

uses substances because it’s fun for

long right like it’s a miserable life

but there’s something that continues to

drive that and so getting underneath it

whether it be the anxiety or depression

or other mental health concerns

i think that

normalizing that within our curriculum

and having the language around it has

really allowed people to be more honest

with themselves and kind of get to that

root issue rather than just treating the

symptom yeah so yeah i really like that

too because it’s not i’m just not an

addict like it’s much more that and when

you can approach it from the whole

person and from a mental health

perspective then we can when we focus in

on mental health i believe it takes care

of things like anger and some of those

rooted really rooted issues

um as you walk through the curriculum

with our clients

um really over the last year and a half

or two years since we’ve had the

curriculum this curriculum in place

what are some of your more

um

kind of favorite

weeks to teach or plan for yeah uh

good question

i love grief and loss

i

uh

it’s like a running joke i think um with

clients going through that week of

curriculum that like us counselors

really are like out to make them cry or

like or kind of these um we collect

their tears and our coffee cups or

something like that um

and it’s not like it’s not that like

we’re not just

get trying to make people cry but there

is a lot of i think progress made in

that week

and for me like grief and loss is a

reason that i am a counselor and so like

that personal attachment getting to see

people like work through

what i think we’ve all struggled with at

some point or another um is really

powerful so yeah it’s a it’s a really

really powerful week getting to kind of

walk alongside people

feeling anger and denial and depression

and kind of walking through the stages

with them so

that’s a great point what do you get

what do you see

as a result of not dealing with one’s

grief what are some barriers that come

up when you see someone entrenched in

their grief or an inability to have a

thorough

um grieving process

yeah i mean i think that grief is often

stunted right and i think that even in

the dsm in the past it’s not really been

like fully acknowledged as this like big

problem

um and i think actually now they’re

making edits to the dsm which is like

the diagnostic

manual basically for clinicians to kind

of diagnose people

with different mental health concerns

they’re actually finding that like

complicated grief is a thing and it can

last longer than it’s supposed to

and i think

i mean there’s a lot of different things

that you can be grieving it’s not just

the loss of a person that was important

to you or this

you know some thing that i think is

often related to grief and loss but it’s

something like maybe you’re grieving

your childhood

because of trauma maybe you’re grieving

um

the loss of life that you had because of

this addiction maybe you know like

there’s different parts of it and so i

think not addressing those parts

is what we’re talking about like that’s

what keeps you in kind of the symptoms

of addiction like the substance use so

yeah that makes a lot of sense thank you

for shedding light on that and what

would you guys this is what i was taught

in the field what would you say to this

grief unlike trauma with time heals over

time

but i think that’s an interesting

statement i certainly

don’t think that

trauma does not resolve with time i mean

it

it does take some time but it doesn’t

time alone won’t heal that

um

i i don’t think i don’t think grief is

all that dissimilar i don’t think it’s

quite as intense maybe

to kind of walk through grief but

um you know as morgan was talking a

minute ago like i did think of

well what i tell our clients too like um

i got to sit in on grief week a couple

weeks ago

and and offer a little lecture and i did

talk about how

if we don’t learn how to grieve it does

create this log jam and oftentimes

i’m sure morgan can tell 100 stories

about this but oftentimes

when we walk clients through a grief

process they’re like wait i have all

these other grief letters i want to

write like i want to keep this going

because i’m feeling all this relief and

now i have this new process a new

channel with which i can work through

some of these losses that i’ve

experienced and so

um

i i think that’s how we

kind of relate it to kind of long-term

recovery from mental health and

substance use is to say

you know we’re giving you the process

of how to grieve

and you know in in grieving most

grieving models say that denial is a

part of that process like some after

some initial shock and

you know bargaining like you know i just

want this person back or whatever it may

be or i want this relationship back

whatever the case may be it’s like there

is

part of it that is a denial process uh

according to most models but

um

unless you kind of know or kind of have

access to

that channel if you will like it it

actually is a very difficult thing to

just let time

go away because and you can tell then if

you bring up something from well in the

past and it still creates all this pain

or um

anger or an avoidance of that topic that

follows very similar to trauma yeah do

you agree with that absolutely yeah yeah

and i had thought too you know i used to

be told

in back when i went those are 2008

but they’re like grief unlike trauma

with time it’ll heal but i had much a

dissimilar experience when i was at the

meadows processing my grief

it almost came from a hunt like my whole

life yeah it was like

yeah and it came out and grandpa we’re

talking


if that is true over it right and it

just wasn’t that way

um so i really like what you said there

and really offering people the authentic

opportunity to learn that process for

themselves and really actualize that

in the outpatient setting in their world

in their family systems in their

communities can really be an authentic

way to not get that log jam to not have

kind of some of that stuff build up

and exacerbate some of those symptoms so

thank you for that um another question i

wanted to ask is as we’re going through

the curriculum

what are some of

the barriers

let’s talk about mature adults

as you get mature adults professionals

which we often get in programming what

are some of the barriers

to those folks having an authentic

process within our curriculum or

specifically maybe even grief week

i mean i think it comes back to denial a

lot of the times

i mean it’s just

i mean mature adults right like

they have routines

they have

uh ways that they like things and in

ways that have worked for them right

like if you’re

a 45 year old male

and you’re just now starting to see a

problem with your substance use right

like you have

a long time working for you

it’s not working anymore but i think

that breaking those patterns is hard

and i think that the beauty of our kind

of program and curriculum

um it provides that opportunity to do so

with other mature people but also like

i think the intergenerational kind of

component of like

you know

older guys with younger guys or older

women with younger women like getting to

see each other like step into that

vulnerability which is generally a new

space for mature adults yeah um

i think that it’s a really cool

component of that yes so what you’re

actually saying in that is like mixed

ages in our milieu with six weeks much

different than gender specification

which we all know to be hook line and

sink are the way to go you’re saying

that this mixed ages really offers an

opportunity because we are to your point

coming off the back of a very physical

generation and opening up to a very

emotionally heightened and aware

generation so that 20 year old may go

into session and just empty the tank and

that mature adult goes whoa if he can do

that maybe i can yeah wow that’s cool

yeah i really like that

and it makes sense too because those

adaptive behaviors

right there’s i don’t think there’s

anything wrong with having a glass of

wine at night i really don’t and for the


into treatment for the first time i have

to imagine that that’s been an adaptive

behavior for a number of years and then

it was two and then three and so trying

to get back to somewhere you’ve been it

almost appears like the young adult

really never had that

and so

there’s not that same kind of barrier

there yeah

let me ask you

with a grief week or

a week in the curriculum what are some

of the barriers

for young people having an authentic

process within the curriculum

i think that’s hard i mean

we have so many young people come

through our program um

and so many of them find success and i

think that i mean culture is not really

on our side right it’s not on the the

side of abstinence or even um like

responsible use

um just i mean if you’re still if you’re

coming in as an 18 year old or even a 21

year old right like still in college

like there’s a lot of things

that

present as obstacles in your way of

recovery and so i think just

i don’t want to say not being done but

but like the willingness to kind of give

up normal as society sees it i think is

a huge barrier for our young people um

but i think

i mean it’s a hard one to overcome

frankly right like when it’s so

normalized within within culture so yeah

i really like that what do you think are

some of the

barriers for young people for the young

people with our curriculum specifically

oh with the curriculum okay

um

i mean there are some

people yeah i mean we i don’t mean to

keep going back to grief and loss but

there certainly are 18 or 19 year olds

that are like i’ve really lost anything

like my parents are a lot my

grandparents are alive my

you know i’ve had some flings with a

girlfriend or a boyfriend but hasn’t

really ever just lost a lot right um

and it takes really kind of crafty uh

clinicians to weave in there and find

um elements of loss whatever that might

be whether it’s

hopes and dreams or like you know

connections with other people or

i i

we’ve

i don’t know hundreds of people have

gone through our grief week and and i

think we’re at 100 we found something

for people to work on grieving about i

think we’ve we figured it out every time

but but sometimes just that that insight

and that introspection and then

um

i would also say particularly with

substance use uh

substance use

young people with substance use

uh the good parts are still really kind

of proximate

they’re only a year or two ago things

were mostly pretty fun yeah if you’re

talking to a 45 year old guy the the

party time is well passed if you ask me

um

and then like with with people with

mental health young adults with mental

health

um it’s fascinating the amount of denial

that comes with that like just the lack

of acceptance of like this couldn’t

happen to me or this isn’t it or

i think it’s another thing that’s

causing my mind to race or whatever it

might be like it’s difficult

um

with maybe i think young adults to

externalize a lot of what’s happening to

them like blame a lot of other things on

the outside yeah yeah yeah i like your

example with the grief and loss

especially like for younger people we

were just processing this

i think last week or the week before but

a younger

one of our clients kind of figuring out

to grieve like the expectations and

hopes that he had for his life right

like as a 20 year old

dealing with pretty significant mental

health concerns

like figuring out

well like what i wanted to do is not

going to happen

right and so and that’s heavy

right and like

at the beginning of the week i haven’t

lost anybody like you said i haven’t

i haven’t moved i haven’t done any of

the stuff that you all are talking about

and and really we’re talking about much

deeper things

so yeah i think that’s i think that’s

great and the barrier for young people

the reason i ask is because you know i

was a young adult getting sober and i

was at cottonwood day tucson and i had a

phenomenal therapist i never once cried

there

and i think something that you all do

brilliantly

and the peaks team collectively does it

really really well is it’s dawned on me

through the work that you all do with

our clients and the safety you create

you make it really safe

i don’t know in any of my treatment

stays all three of them if i ever got

safe

and so when you ask me what’s going on

i’m like hey i’m here man you know we’re

gonna get through this but we’re not

talking about that yeah because we’re

just not going there and i’m right here

i’m all in here and so a huge barrier

sometimes is is can be lack of safety

but also young adults who have really

ripped and roared and the only reason

they’re alive that day is because of

themselves

nobody supported that and it can become

a really big barrier when you’re trying

to do that work when you don’t implement

safety i would imagine if i were to tuck

in my 22 year old self into peaks man

you guys would have a field day

um

because you create that safety yeah yeah

yeah so i just i really love the

opportunity you’re affording not only

mature adults but creating safety for

young adults that potentially have never

had safety in their life ever

and you can see people really come alive

on that peaks campus when they get that

safety they’re like

just tell me whatever you want to tell

me and i’ll listen

so and it’s because of people like you

guys i mean really just creating

that culture and really creating that

energy that is sufficient for safety is

just really really cool to watch

um so

so morgan unfortunately

um one of our badass clinicians and i

thought i was telling morgan before the

show was like

all of our clinicians are really good

and it really really sucks to lose any

of them

but morgan is a military family and

they’re going to be moving to kentucky

and so we’re going to be losing her in

the next two and a half weeks which we

are very sad about morgan is an awesome

clinician she has literally grown up

right in front of our eyes and

is an even better human and we all know

that and i think that’s probably what

we’ll miss most but i wanted to just

check in with you and

we talked about before the show some

things that you’ll miss and some things

you’re weary of entering into the field

outside of peaks because it is a little

bit different but i just wanted to check

in and talk about like what’s like your

favorite thing about pigs and your

experience here

easy answer um and i think you know even

going back to this previous conversation

that we’ve been having like creating

safety for our clients i think that

starts within

like the clinical culture

and i think that over the past couple

years we’ve really established as a

clinical team

that safety

and that kind of integrity within

ourselves

the team i mean thanks to you thanks to

i think a lot of people but

um it i’m

i think i’m most weary of leaving peaks

because of that

because i’m afraid that i’m not going to

find that somewhere else

i mean it’s the best clinical team and

i’m

biased obviously i’ve honestly never

worked on another clinical team

but like it’s the best clinical team in

the in the nation um

and i think that

i mean there’s a lot of evidence that

support this that supports that um but

like i think the teamwork the the

support that we give each other uh even

when

days are hard or

things are a little wonky and aren’t

going as planned like people stepping up

for each other in the way that they do

like that is a it’s a beautiful thing so

yeah wow that’s that’s really special

safety within a team

wow

jason how’s that for you as the clinical

chief clinical officer and i know just

even year and a half ago two years ago

maybe nobody would have said that yeah i

i

um

well we were also talking before the

show about our clinical meeting that we

had yesterday we

i think what we have as a company and

then i want to say particularly as a

team is we have integrity well if we’re

asking clients to do it we’re doing it

too

and you know it’s interesting i don’t

know if it’s a coincidence or what that

we’re talking about grief and loss well

we’ve started grieving our loss of

morgan and she started grieving her loss

of leaving peaks

and we’re sitting in our clinical

meeting with all the clinicians

on a residential team

and uh

it’s

there’s a lot of tissues and a lot of

sniffling and yeah um

because this is sad and in in

because

um we love morgan i love morgan it’s

gonna be hard to watch her go um

[Music]

and

and i know that if we all in that room

just stuff it down and act like this

isn’t happening we’re of no service to

the people coming into our program

and um and i can’t ask

our clinicians to hold space if we can’t

if i can’t hold space for them and they

can’t hold space for each other either

um and i think that’s

to me the magic sauce of this whole

thing is that

um

we’re just we’re no better than our

clients we’re

in this life thing it’s hard it’s

difficult and we lose things sometimes

that we

uh find to be precious and it’s gonna

suck to have morgan leave

um

but we all get to kind of walk through

our process and we’ve even joked like oh

we’re in denial right now well

we broke close to that last week

but all that to say like i just really

think um

i i think there’s an integrity between

our curriculum and our team that

that we’re we we aren’t um doing things

that are out of alignment with how

we approach each other

and and i’ve heard it so many times

clinicians coming to me and being like

the clients are saying that you guys

seem to really like each other

this team really seems to care about

each other and like um

unequivocally we do and that is not an

act you can’t make that up yeah and i

and i can remember you know in other

jobs and and certainly earlier in my

career i can remember

offering advice that i wish i could take

or offering solution that i hadn’t

realized myself you know what i mean and

um

so to have a team where we can

just do that and and

wrestle with these things i think it’s i

mean it’s the biggest privilege of my

life to be honest with you so

that’s really cool and and thank you

both for coming on it’s just it’s it’s

really

it’s sad to see you go um and i will

miss you know because i get to sit down

and with clients and have a smoothie and

i’ll miss you know hey i sat with morgan

the other day and we did this and how

where did you find morgan you know

morgan’s phenomenal i’ve never had a

therapist like morgan i will miss

hearing that on our campus i’ll miss

seeing that bright light that you are

but like i said before the show i think

i think maybe your mission’s a little

bigger

and i think and i’m hopeful that you’ll

see it at the next turn

but

when you’re talking about leading and

you’re talking about leading with

integrity it’s really up my alley and

there’s two people sitting in front of

me right now that do that exceptionally

well

and that is something that if i was in

treatment i would follow and i always

put myself in that client’s chair and i

look would i follow

and i would fall that the answer today

is a resounding yes

so thank you both for the work that you

do for vulnerable people and with each

other

that’s special

um so thank you so much yeah thanks

chris and that is going to be it today

for fine and peaks what a great episode

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beautiful and blessed day happy easter

happy holidays happy spring time

peace