Episode 99

hello and welcome to uh the 99th episode of Finding Peaks uh I’m your host Jason Friedman Chief clinical officer Peaks recovery joining me today I’m just really excited uh my my usual people uh my peeps Chris Burns uh president founder of Peaks and Madeleine Padilla uh admissions specialist and uh today um I’ve got a couple announcements that I want to go over first of all guys cargo pants are back are they oh those are nice yeah these are cargos holy crap what these are but like I’m really excited because like I was old enough to wear cargo pants like in my 20s I had the photos it’s just with the big pockets is that what defines a cargo pan is the big pocket yeah the pocket it doesn’t have anything to do with the hammer strap no okay be on here okay yeah so I’m really excited these are back and now I’ve got some cargo pants these do look cooler than the ones they are yeah they’re really informative years ago yeah um and the other announcement is that uh we had TJ Woodward on here with conscious recovery and we did decide to partner with him we’re now a certified program by conscious recovery and we are beginning to integrate his program into our curriculum and so I invited Chris and Madeline on to kind of talk about the principles of conscious recovery because I think they really just fall in line with uh where Peaks is headed when really where we’ve been and kind of each of our growth over the last few years both professionally and personally uh it kind of leads us to this moment and so um kind of without further Ado I did you guys uh were diligent I think about doing a little homework coming in but first first impression of conscious recovery either one of you
upon you say we’re integrating into that because I think he encapsulated what we are already doing yeah it just fit it works you know I TJ is an amazing guy and we’re picking up what he’s putting down in fact I think we picked it up a while ago um but he just put it in a more yeah he packaged it he packaged it right he packaged it in a way that people could understand and just reading through kind of the principles and some of the stuff he said I’m thinking oh my gosh it fits on a page yeah it’s really simple it’s simple love it I really enjoyed not only the curriculum side but just the way that TJ opens up in the show I can really relate to the part where he was going through 12-step programming he’s 18 months into recovery and he doesn’t feel like he can be authentic and vulnerable and honest with where he’s at but quite frankly he feels like dying and I can really relate to that in the early stages of recovery but I thought it’s the best we had so I just clinch my teeth and did the best I could but it really gives people hope and otherwise seemingly hopeless environment and the way that he walks that through with defining people’s Perfection and then life he calls it environment things happen kind of pile on top of that I think is just extraordinary because I’ve had this experience over the last 15 years of doing this work where it’s very difficult to get people to settle and get safe in the environment specifically an inpatient environment extended care whatever it might be because I would come into TJ’s point with a plan to change you and that was really industry driven and culture driven in our industry for a lot of years and people just had this inability to settle and now through this conscious approach what TJ says holding space knowing your light so you can see it in others and simply knowing that the people that we walk with are resourced enough and have everything they need to do this they just need that safe container I think is the biggest breath of fresh air of which we’ve been pushing but it’s really solidified with this conscious recovery opportunity now I believe as I’ve talked on past episodes the world is a traumatizing place and everybody’s living through this lived Human Experience and so now everybody as I say week in and week out I think can see themselves within the recovery process like what you said the environment the environment instead of instead of treatment because we were talking about this that like applying an external Force to push you in a different direction or change you that’s old yes that is so old you know but an environment for healing where we’re just going to let you settle and you actually have what you need already inside of you that’s hopeful that’s really hopeful for people and that untouchable impenetrable part of somebody where their value is not connected to any of their actions yeah that’s how you eliminate toxic shame I’m worthy because I am alive because I exist and it has nothing to do with the outcome yeah yeah and Justice to look at the first principle that he talked about like you’re already touching on it and it is underneath all addictive behaviors and essential self that is whole and perfect perfect and so healing is just about kind of reconnecting with that aspect of yourself that that you know toxic shame says you’re certainly not whole and perfect and even when you know when he did the training a few weeks ago with us I remember when he when we read this principle I’m like wow do I believe that at Jason’s core there is something whole and perfect and I’ve thought about it every day since then to be honest with you because um there are moments when that when I can touch that and there are moments when that seems a little less successful yeah but you brought up a good comment when you went through the training too it’s like how we Define you know I have a six and seven year old at home when those babies come out into this world you cannot tell me for a moment yeah that that’s a potentially a sinner that they’re doing something wrong that they’re maladapted that they’re going to create harm that is perfection personified it really is and then you watch the world build on top of that young person I know you know it’s like shaving away yeah shaving away right it’s tough to watch and you know in conversations with tj2 he talked a lot about like he he wishes we would change our name frankly like if we would let him to to Peaks like Healing Center rather than recording Center because he’s saying that that the healing comes from that that yourself from that whole and Perfect part of you and allowing that to come through and push through the shame so we just are as an agency or as a as a program like we are here to kind of provide the safety the Band-Aid if you will but the healing the magic of it is happening underneath I love that um the Band-Aid yeah the Band-Aid because it it’s like a scab you know you and you keep peeling it off peeling it off or it is re-traumatized the healing just can’t start right it just can’t if you’ve got your hand in the fire still there is no you know healing process that’s going to happen so if we just get people out of the heat we just take them out of the fire for a minute you know or 45 days 30 days right the healing will happen I mean it’s almost inevitable people are so resilient yeah like they really are it blows my mind uh what people are capable of if they’re in the right ecosystem and it really fits with our alignment with our model with like our from our treatment planning perspective you know we didn’t know the conscious recovery fits but we really bring people in and like hey let’s walk with you we don’t have these drop down treatment plans where it’s like you’re doing this and you’re doing this it’s individualized as it comes and um it really needs to fit them like a glove and to watch people be active participants or guide their own process is really really empowering we used to come in and say you’re going to do this you’re 90 and 90 you’re in a box and it’s like my name’s Chris and I’m a lot of things yeah but an alcoholic today is not one of them and I think that’s important to say because we get pushed into these Corners sometimes through old culture even folks today just haven’t jumped on the bandwagon of that true genuine authentic self and it can be really discouraging for people that are trying to make put their best foot forward in this process and it’s unfortunate that the multitude and I don’t like the treatment bash but the multitude of providers just aren’t putting that foot forward of authenticity and vulnerability because it requires a tremendous amount of resources and curiosity yeah it really does but um Madeline and I were talking too like it it is so much easier to be really rigid and really certain and to kind of embrace the the mystery of allowing kind of the mystery of healing to occur because we don’t have control over it like we just have to provide the setting and this the set and the setting for it to occur and provide our uh our knowledge and information all that but really the healing we just get to access people as they begin to heal that’s tricky and it’s less about us than it’s suddenly about and it’s startling for folks it is it’s really startling like how are you gonna treat me I don’t know teach us yeah yeah tell me about yourself teach us right teach us how to support you yeah sometimes people don’t like that answer they want to know exactly what we’re going to do to change them and that’s the issue that’s where this whole thing went bad in the first place yeah going back to your experience right your experience speaks to the volumes to that because I can remember being in group with you and I told the women this morning I’m like Madeline she’d be like past Chris not feeling it yeah like you neutral like what are we changing and there was an experience in there and an energy exchange that really speaks to me now and it was like this stuff isn’t going to work for me I’m seeing something different I don’t know what it is but this repetitive trying to change me is not going to work and you really dug your foot in the ground in at a time that was probably way before it should have you know oh I was arguing with stuff right the whole thing was crazy you know it was um but I do know where the healing happened and it just happened with people that were willing to be present and that was it and you know what all the other kind of old school stuff that was going on at the time I was willing to overlook that because the presence was really good you know you can Overlook that um but what if we had all the presidents and none of the distractions that are taking people away from the the unshakable truth that they are whole yeah
it’s pretty powerful yeah it is the the second principle that he talks about which I think is great too he says the addiction itself has never been the problem but was a strategy that has lost its effect yes people use drugs because they were yeah so good when he talked to him he calls it the brilliant strategy drinking was the brilliant strategy drug use was the brilliant strategy isolation was the Brilliance strategy not getting out of bed was the brilliant strategy these were given what you’ve been through given your shame given your trauma given whatever these were the brilliant things you came up with to survive and it’s not only like saying don’t be ashamed of that it’s saying be proud of that I’d be proud that you found something that got you through a thing that was really hard and then it stopped being effective obviously yeah but it but that isn’t the actual problem like it was actually this strategy you used to try to address the problem and you know TJ said it he said
whoa okay so now now we’re actually honoring that as a strategy removing the behavior from it’s not a um it’s not an indicator of of your value right now it’s starting to make sense that makes sense like honoring the things that you did to survive they are they’re incredible yeah you know we need to honor that and other people too yeah because it comes at a time in our developmental process right um we’re making childlike decisions because we’re children oftentimes and so what do kids do they try and get safe and it works at the time it’s a really great adaptive Behavior totally but an Adaptive Behavior at six turns maladaptive by like third grade you know and now as you’re tuning your world out there the world’s requiring you to tune it in and so we kind of get pushed in these directions and so I think the healing the opportunity that we have to create a safe container and let people explore the roots of those symptoms from a holistic side of things right can be really really efficacious because people toxic shame they’re already feeling there’s nobody coming in that’s beating themselves upwards from the person walking through the door and so if we can now allow a container of acceptance compassion and empathy and all these badass resources and curriculum that people can weave their story in and out of I think it creates a tremendous opportunity for sustainability which is really crucial in the early stages of recovery Strat and strategies yeah I like that strategies are specific to the environment I have a bunch of strategies that I employed in a certain environment that only work in that environment in a safe environment that’s that’s kind of awkward oh this doesn’t work anymore and they they’re trying to like weave it in right because the brain is like that worked that one time yeah do you remember that yeah try it here and to not be judged for trying it in the wrong the wrong environment you know you know I shouldn’t say wrong but the inappropriate environment for that to work and not shaming people for that either we’re all just trying to navigate and figure out what works right now in here yeah I think that’s wonderful and to not beat ourselves up over something that saved our life and when people first started to ask the question like what did alcohol do for you aren’t you grateful that you had it I’m like no as bad is killing me and I had all this negative energy wrapped around it but I often look back when Mental Health Care was absent which is when I was drinking and you know to not drink what is the next option you know to go to a place for my mental health it’s a very very scary place and Gabor mate says it in his book it’s hard to get enough of something that almost works and you know like heroin it’s a cheap knockoff for that total wholeness this yeah and everybody wants it so bad and and it gets you so close wow people need that they really want that and it’s a cheap it’s a cheap replica it’s a knockoff it’s not the real thing yeah but of course that’s to be human I’m trying to capture that that wholeness again we just we can find better ways though that are always accessible right and and strategies that work everywhere what if we had a strategy that worked no matter what the environment was and I think we do I think it is that unshakable worthiness part of yourself you can take that with you everywhere and no one can take it away from you even yourself like even you yeah being a part of that healing journey and that authentic process um for the individual today is such a breath of fresh air I was just down at the men’s campus and you know just just watching guys safe enough to communicate clearly with somebody like the president of a company coming and saying hey you know this program is absolutely amazing but the other day when you saw me I didn’t say I was like oh crap I didn’t see you you know something as simple as that that is so much safety these guys have been there two weeks and that’s the type of environment we have and that’s what I love about Peaks is it’s so transparent is it has Integrity woven into every corner there’s no dark Corners I mean I think clients really it really satiates the nervous system when people walk in it’s safe yeah there’s no agenda underlying yeah what you see is what you get every day well that lack of safety I mean we’ve talked about on this show a few times like when people have to be hyper Vigilant of like I have to be reading things like where’s the problems where are the dark Corners what are what what isn’t safe here at Peaks like it’s why top to bottom it has to have integrity and it has to be kind of a solid program it’s the only way this sort of thing works I think um let me transition to the third principle uh he says treating addiction must go beyond addressing symptoms and get to the underlying root causes of destructive Behavior um because it’s again like it just speaks to it’s so easy I think to um just say drinking’s bad or heroin’s bad or depression’s bad like here’s the behaviors you have to change uh to be okay that’s that outside in approach um and some of that’s true like there are a few things that need to be adjusted maybe an environment maybe not um but so much of it is like maintaining that Curiosity um to go through that and just like the previous one about um the the brilliant strategy like why is this Brewing strategy here what what what is that strategy kind of dealing with and I think uh that’s to me the exciting part of therapy to be honest with you is helping people track that stuff down right helping people track that stuff down yeah it might be over here right so people say well what are you going to do for me in therapy yeah maybe help you track some stuff down maybe you know yeah that’s right there but like you can’t see it within yourself it’s it is crazy yeah and that’s where I love a lot of the you know where does where does that trauma show up today and what does it inform so I really love TJ’s point on that I think even mentioned the episode like where you feel that in your body I’m a big somatic guy and I think the body holds a lot of that but what I’ve learned through my somatic work is if we don’t have that container of safety it won’t come up and so they used to ask me where do you feel it in your body and I’m like I’m thinking about it right here yeah I don’t feel anything because I’m really disconnected my brain’s keeping me really safe because there’s a lot going on here yeah but I love when we moved into that authentic space we can really start to move some of that old maladapted energy in a really efficacious way that creates long-term healing yeah um not recovery healing and that’s something that a couple of guys have been getting with me lately Matt specifically is like it’s not a recovery Behavior man it’s a life Behavior right I’m like ah yeah you get so caught up oh yeah that works for everybody everybody’s stressed everybody yeah you know and boy what a good feeling to know if you felt marginalized or ostracized or you know outside looking in this is a human condition issue there’s nobody I can encounter that hasn’t felt this in some way it just doesn’t happen and that that we want to talk about safety in the world that feels safer there is some fundamental thing that just connects people on that human level that I think that is safety emotional safety yeah you know yeah for sure I’m sitting here and I’m thinking like it’s a question that’s top of mind for me is why do we still do substance abuse treatment what you’re and you’re the chief clinical officer and I’m wondering I know we don’t do substances is there any efficacy to now I understand from a community integration approach potentially but when we go back to this perfect perfect being I think that that old approach really misses the Mark um because it’s up to the individual and the finger often gets pointed back in my part and so what is the efficacy today if it at all if these substance abuse approaches where people come in and they deliver in packets and they go through relapse prevention and we talk about how you can stay away from the old crowd and erase numbers in your phone and back to the old stuff
I think you’re being a little rhetorical I I mean and I do there’s a lane where that works for some people right like and and I don’t want to undermine that at all like I have um I think the people that I’ve found that sort of thing works really well with are people like I’ve had great success with some clients that are very kind of concrete thinkers like they just think black and white and they literally like oh okay so stop going to the bar and I can do that and stopped and they and they can follow kind of do it yeah um I would say they’re atypical people like that that are just willing to kind of follow instruction and like that is all the freedom they can find is like okay I can I can kind of Follow that path yeah um and I think the more we kind of talk about this and kind of explore Concepts like conscious recovery um and what we’re exploring with our own curriculum at Peaks is that um we just don’t draw the distinction like it’s just like everybody’s in the same pot and like it doesn’t matter if you if you know you’re an affluent person with depression and you’re confused about why you’re in here with all these other people right we’re all the people well yeah right where all the people but we also need to be like mindful that not not everybody is in that spot I mean I wasn’t in that spot until recently like even understanding a little bit of this stuff we get a lot of calls too is my child that’s mental Mental Health primary going to be with people that have that are substance use like what does that mean help me understand what that means because this kid is he’s cutting his wrists right and he’s in pain that’s his strategy is that different than this strategy I mean it’s just a strategy so if we can change the dialogue just to well it’s all mental health but the strategies to survive do manifest in other ways we gotta find the commonalities I think way too long there’s been this this um Schism between these two things and it doesn’t serve either side
yeah well it don’t you think they’re just asking like will people understand me and will they be around people that’s right that’s the real question right and I think as long as as a staff we can answer that question that we all understand yeah we all are humans in living through this Human Condition and we’ve all had to wrestle with these things and it doesn’t matter what your issue is that brought you here like the solution is a lot the same actually right and it’s and it’s kind of addressing that toxic shame and resolving your trauma and that sort of thing I think that yeah is the most helpful I want that light and that’s I love the light that you all cast on everybody and it’s a bright light and it doesn’t it’s not on substance users it’s not on codependent people it’s not on people’s relationship issues not on people with process addiction it’s everybody that’s right and it’s really got to be that way um for it to work for everybody and my goal is always and when I walk with people I always walk with them on a journey of like you know because the substance abuser carries a tremendous amount of shame because of the way the world looks at substance abuse users big time but I’ll often walk with people to say Hey you know my wife used to hang out with recovery crowds and she just used to say things like I would say you know this is 15 years ago I’m like why are you here this is a closed meetings of Alcoholics Anonymous and she would say things like I don’t know I can just really relate to what you guys got going on here whoa never touched a substance and I’d be like well you can’t you know and so like I want to go back and I want I want my wife to be able to see herself in our program right because she suffers just the same right and if we all live to 100 which the substance abuser has this inherent risk and it probably won’t happen but if we live to a hundred we’re in the same spot right all alone exactly right and I think TJ I was reading this book and I was we were talking about it earlier too and I think it’s worth mentioning and I’m a very spiritual person I feel like I’ve had conversations with God and I don’t mean that in a crazy way I’ve been on mountains and I feel like God has spoken to me um and there’s this book that I just read that’s called why religion and it’s kind of a loaded title um and it was a question mark and my buddy and that I met in Ecuador in the Andes had me read it and I’m reading through it and it’s very very wordy but it comes to a point in the back of the book where it’s like a Magic Eye Book when we’re kids when you like cross your eyes and it pops off the page oh yeah and it goes when you know yourself you will come to know the presence of God and for me that just hit home so much with this conscious recovery stuff when I see the light in myself I can see it in others and I can see this true genuine authentic world as maybe it once was right see and then there’s where we got it
come on how often you hear this it just keeps coming up like well I don’t I don’t believe in God I don’t have a higher power so that you know that that part is not for me or whatever you know and it but it’s just connecting connecting with you yeah you know that’s all you’ve got to do that that really is and everything else will be revealed yeah from that yeah and it all falls into place do you think it’s easier though to identify that unshakable piece of you know value in yourself or someone else can you see who do you see it in first because I think you start with I don’t see it in anybody including myself but I actually think that there were times where I saw it in other people first and that opened up the idea that like maybe they see me in that way it’s possible yeah but I don’t know it could go either way yeah I always approach my recovery from what the the culture fed me at the time which was like I mean I was told when I went into a when I went into this field yeah if somebody in early recovery’s lips are moving they’re lying that’s what I was told 15 years ago they’re like okay Training 101 if a fanatic talks they’re lying I’m like wow that makes sense because I’m a liar Shame Shame Shame Shame yeah Shameless shame exacerbate shame yeah more shame yeah and so it doesn’t cancel out no it doesn’t at all you know and to approach people people can feel when you approach them from their wholeness and wellness yeah it’s a much different conversation a much different energy exchange that’s like death right there everything you’re here you’re somewhere you’re trying to connect and and everything you say is a lie
right hopeless that’s hopelessness yeah and I’m less than right forever forever forever permanently and it makes a good it’s sentence setting wins a lot of that stuff was fostered it makes a lot of sense but as in in 2023 I think we can see humans Much More authentically Much More authentically I think so too all right fourth principle we can get through these things uh the root cause and we’ve talked about this one a bit the root causes of addictive behavior are unresolved trauma spiritual disconnection and toxic shame and um man this one hits like I feel really in touch with the trauma piece like I think we’ve been doing that for quite a while and the toxic shame uh you know I’ve been with brene brown I’ve been rolling with brene brown uh since before it was cool yeah yeah oh gee but that that spiritual disconnection piece hits me too yeah um and it was what I was telling the clinical team uh this week was that um it’s the most exciting emerging part of this whole process I think is part of our curriculum and what we’re doing is like I think we have created such a great safe space and we we’ve put the tools in we don’t have dark Corners like you said um and now we built this identity and purpose component to our program and to me like it gets energized by the spiritual piece to find your meaning to find your purpose to find your direction to find your values and to find what it is you believe in and to connect to yourself again and and uh and that goes to what you just said that quote about um seeing the face of God within myself like what um but so like I can feel the power of it too and I can feel that missing component oh it is and it’s exciting because there’s almost this this connection or like a dryness that happens when we’re talking about just evidence-based evidence-based modalities which we do here but my point in that is evidence of what 10 10 to 15 yeah success right is that the evidence like is that is that what we’re looking to that’s not good enough no that’s not even close you know that’s kind of embarrassing yeah so even that evidence-based like
yeah evidence of a failure that’s what I see so we we need to stay flexible and we need to get excited about the unexplored parts or the Unseen Parts sometimes and I do I think it is the spirituality piece it is inevident space just means uh researchable sure and it’s hard how do you research spiritual connection right It’s Tricky right so it’s hard to how do you make that an evidence-based approach how do you Whittle it down here’s the evidence right here here’s the evidence the evidence evidence-based how do people get better you get in touch with yourself you feel connected to people around you you can’t even explain that you’re just back in that state of wholeness that’s all the evidence you’re going to need right yeah but if you need is to know that you’re actually perfect the way that you right and it seems like loaded and but it really is that well and TJ says go back to a time in your life did you ever feel good and I thought about that you know I was driving my car I’m like oh God you know when was that yeah and it was many many years ago in in childhood I remember just feeling like I’m a part of this world I belong in this world I have a place here and then I got farther and farther away from that so there’s there’s some evidence right there that’s when things were right yeah how do we go how do we go back you know recovering recovery recovering what’s lost like how do we get that bag yeah yeah that sense of self is is really really important and I love that we’re talking about this now because it used to be a heavy component of ours when we were 12-step driven a handful of years ago it was like well you’re gonna go to a and figure it out and then you’re gonna find a power greater than yourself and you just found people just coming out just why this what is this you know it says God everywhere and does this thing and it really feels like a box it’s a bigger box than it used to be but it still feels like a box and now it’s one of the components of our program that I think um you know really re-emphasizing and highlighting to have people have that purpose and that guidance spiritually I think can be really really cool and I never knew I never I didn’t hear things like when you get to the bottom of this wholeness and fullness of your true self you’ll then experience the presence of God when I was in Ecuador and I was walking with this guy and my good friend and I would sit there and I would go and this is Mount Chimborazo man it’s 21 000 feet we’re here and there’s llamas and there’s ketchup with people and they’ve been around since the Incans and they’re doing this thing I’m like I don’t know why you gotta over complicate things this is the presence of God and he kept saying I know man I know no trust me I get it and then he gave me the book and I was like wow you do know yeah really cool you find those moments Chris you’re you are literally like on the Mountaintop Jason I have a feeling you’re the same oh yeah you’re the same way it is my church yeah yeah yeah I always say when it’s when we go hiking on Sunday I said get ready for the best church service you have ever been a part of you I’m just seeing now or sing Lander let’s go and it really is because and that’s spiritual it’s like we start at the trailhead and quality of life is abysmal especially for people that are new right 4 AM it’s cold I don’t know where we’re going Chris Burns has been talking for an hour two hours but we’re gonna check in quality of life’s gonna be a four out of ten but when you come across that Summit something happens yeah uh I think you recognize that wholeness and fullness and that true part about yourself that has been lost on that Mountaintop and actually it causes you to focus in on that big time and it’s this amazing experience and I always check in with people like quality of life and they they rattle off a number that’s not between one and ten as they bawl their eyes out and so that’s my goal is like I want and I know Jason too he introduced me to this he’s like let me take you to my church and let me see if you can relate to that and in the beginning stages I thought I did from a spiritual perspective it was much more physical for me and now it’s so spiritual it’s a sanctuary from the way that the the wind blows through the pine needles from the way that they look in the night when your headlamp hits and I could start crying yeah it’s special and that’s the presence I think that we’re trying to show each and every client each and every human that walks through our program that they have a safe safe space within yeah and to find in that spot because maybe it doesn’t maybe doesn’t happen on the mountain you know maybe maybe it happens somewhere else maybe it’s when you’re in your art or your you know you’re working out I don’t know yeah but if if we can help people find the spot where like the Sun hits their face then we win yeah guys been a lot of guys have been playing music lately yeah playing the piano and you can just see that’s the sun’s hitting their face and for whatever reason artists too for a lot a lot of years it’s like Dad is the doctor doesn’t I’m an artist yeah I think we give people like this really cool opportunity to be who they are right and that’s what I love our Friday night alumni groups that have been a bit stagnulately because of the covid stuff we’re going to be back online it’s like these people get in there and they pick up their instrument and they light up like a Christmas yeah you can see it the flow just the complete ugh you know when you see Real Alignment it takes your breath away it does yeah it’s like it just it chokes me up when you see someone that’s in a place of mastery and like flow and they’re in touch with that that piece it does I mean it just can make you cry yeah it does special special yeah and then all this ties into this last principle which is the pathway to permanent Freedom permanent Freedom let’s go through the adoption of spiritual practices and principles I love that full rest restoration let’s go and we’ve been saying that forever like we’re not hanging on by a thread it’s not you’re one foot away from the ditch like I want to live completely unafraid that that’s the only thing that’s good enough for me yeah because I’m worth it yeah and the consequence actually today is not death right and we’re not walking we’re not dealing with those set of consequences today um because we’re in this healed place yeah what I thought of when I when I was thinking about coming on this show too is that there’s certainly a thing that I’ve heard and I probably have said which is this person lost their gift of desperation and I will grant that like if that’s what gets somebody down this path it’s helpful but like you don’t want to be desperate for decades no it it’s that should be a very short-term gift if it is a gift at all I don’t know that’s that’s my thought on that right desperate yeah the gift of the gift of desperation it feels intense yeah it does forever yeah yeah it feels a little pure mongery a little like yeah I don’t know about you’re desperate until you get to safety yeah you know that the gift is the safety that’s exactly right yeah and what is it that you know traumatized people excrete more of the um stress hormone five to ten times oh yeah cortisol epinephrine and so you come in you know you’re an AAA and you’re like don’t you’ll hold that chair tight and you’re sitting there like I got to give to desperation I like the what’s going on internally right and um from a nervous system perspective and our ability to heal and find safety and God forbid we won’t even talk about agency right because that’s been stripped in your adolescence and then you go in and it’s like box over your head you’re like no agency yeah you know you can’t put one foot in front of the other so right I think these are really important subject matters to discuss in a time that’s really worthwhile to discuss them yeah I think it is too and it’s why I was so excited to have you guys on here as we as we kind of really are working how do we how do we Embrace these uh principles and weave them into what I think is a pretty Dynamic uh curriculum now but um I was also telling the clinical team too we’re really committed to not being stagnant either yeah and to to be ever-changing and open to learning and and um open to new ideas and Concepts and and I think that’s what we’ve embraced like we are unrecognizable company compared to where we were even just a couple years ago and uh yeah things are different yeah and it’s exciting and and um it’s palatable I think on our campus and all that so yeah I love the way the clinical team wraps around it too I mean they just have this infectious energy about them with a lot of this conscious recovery stuff and they’re already compassionate and empathetic and now they have you know the curriculum and the structure of this the conscious recovery I think it really just empowers them to go forward even more to hold that space which at times can be really difficult to do because again it requires us to take care of ourselves yep you know we all got to take care of ourselves and I think that’s the difference that special sauce at Peaks is these meaningful moments that matter but in addition to that we have a culture that TJ spoke to that says open and is clear and authentic and people can heal within it because we’re all we’re still in this journey of healing absolutely you know I mean that’s the beautiful thing it’s an even playing field yeah um we’re on the same boat yes it was right yeah right rolling it together and and you know we’ve done our work and we know we know how to help guide these things or to create the safety for the healing to occur from the inside out but um but we’re all in this together yes little life thing called life um anyway I appreciate you guys uh coming on I thought that was a great discussion yeah thank you and with that I think we’ll sign off please follow us on Facebook or download the podcast on iTunes or wherever you get your podcasts um Instagram I’m sure on there haven’t seen a lot of tick tocks lately I don’t know someone’s slacking a few new ones make sure you like them and as always feel free to email us at questions at findingpeaks.com and we’ll be happy to address those as we go forward thank you guys again and with that we’re out