Episode 56

empathy is knowing your own darkness

without that connection you don’t have

anything what’s the opposite of

addiction just freedom

hello and welcome to finding peaks i’m

jason friesma

chief clinical officer of peaks recovery

centers here in colorado springs and

denver

joining me today

madeline padilla admissions specialist

slash test driving co-host here with me

today guest co-host maybe yeah

and um

and samantha archuleta primary therapist

uh for

our iop program as well as uh doing some

work for our in residential program as

well

um thank you guys for uh joining me

today on finding peeks

um

you know i’m following up the last

couple times i’ve hosted uh we’ve talked

about grief

and so i wanted to keep it light today

and bring up

shame

if we could and resilience

and uh and even self-forgiveness if we

could but uh obviously i say that in

some just but

i’ll start with kind of talking about

what shame is um

and i learned a lot about shame in all

fairness from brene brown i actually had

the privilege of

uh being trained by her specifically in


and um it was a phenomenal conference

that she put on um

and i’m like

whoever this is i like what she’s

talking about but i don’t like the topic

um

and so

shame is pretty much defined as uh

feeling bad about who you are

and um

usually shame statements start with the

words i am um and then

uh and the thing about shame is we all

have it it’s ubiquitous every single

person on the planet pretty much with a

few exceptions probably

carry around shame we all have it

and um the tricky thing about shame is

it tells us uh that if we talk about it

if we expose it to the light

people want to flee from us they won’t

want to be in relationship with us

anymore um

and so we tend to hide it and then it is

that very hiding of the shame that

causes it to get worse

and it reinforces itself

and then frankly uh the reason i think

it’s such an important topic for us to

talk about is that i think it’s one of

the huge leading factors that lead

people into relapse either on substances

or with their mental health issues is

that they just are calling themselves a

piece of garbage all the time and when

and when that is the message that

somebody is telling themself all the

time then that is

uh how they’re going to begin to act and

behave

um

and so that’s just kind of my little uh

overview of what shame is uh and it sets

the tone for this

um and the other thing that i do want to

point out we all have it and then

usually when we talk about it we usually

feel even more of it for a minute and so

i just want to acknowledge that if if

people are watching at home or whatever

and we talk about shame well you might

experience a little bit of it but stay

till the end because we have a solution

for it um make friends with it make

friends with your shame uh invite it on

the couch take a seat but it’s sid chad

um it’s already talking to you so you

might as well invite it in

um anyway so there’s my intro

um samantha i’m gonna go to you first

and and my question about shame is

how do you see it showing up uh for you

and your clinical work with clients

often times with our clients i think

shame shows up as

any other emotion they’ll deflect anger

sadness frustration um

wanting to leave wanting to get out of

the situation because their shame is so

powerful telling them not to talk about

it yeah we’re gonna talk about

everything but this piece and then as

soon as you get to the shame with our

clients it’s almost like they melt into

recovery and treatment and

wanting to get better now because they

realize that

they we see them and that they’re not

worse worse off for being seen they’re

better off for being seen

yeah that’s that’s good no and you’re

right though if

there are there are there is data to

suggest that if you ask people a group

of people what are the most destructive

emotions that there are they will always

answer anger and fear every single time

and that is not the case at all

but no one ever that didn’t even make

the top five right but

shame by as far as the most destructive

absolutely yeah yeah but anger

close second would be fear so it makes

sense that that’s what you see the most

yeah

and i think you know i think you make a

good point that people do often mislabel

it and you said it i think right before

we came on the show here but people

often

say things are embarrassing but they’re

actually quite shameful

right like embarrassment um

[Music]

is uh

is an emotion that we experience it

feels the same like you flush you might

turn red or whatever but but really

embarrassment is categorized by it’s an

emotion

um that is fleeting like it goes away

very quickly with time and usually

you’re gonna laugh about it later you

know what i mean like if it turns out i

do this whole show and i’ve got a booger

in my nose

um i’m gonna have a i’m gonna feel

embarrassed i got a big one bat in the

cave

um

but i’m gonna feel embarrassed but it

could happen to anybody and honestly at

some point i’m gonna laugh and think

it’s actually kind of funny right if i

experience it as shame i’m just gonna be

like i am such an idiot uh because i

can’t even take care of my hygiene that

makes total sense you look at um

embarrassment guilt is is the amygdala

in the brain right and then you you you

look at someone that’s experiencing a

lot of shame it kind of is in the right

and it’s up in the front yeah

where does our sense of self come from

or our projection of ourself in the

future uh oh

we’re up there in the front so yeah it

totally makes sense that those would be

very different um consequences yeah to

both of those things

yes

guilt

guilt guilt’s what yeah you know it

comes and goes

you know what gil keeps us in the

parameters of society and it is very

good i think it’s constructive i don’t

i’m not gonna steal this it’s all good

because i know that that’s wrong and

then

with the shame piece it’s like this is

me i’m like the my core this is me a me

problem and it’s it’s not something that

comes and goes and that’s it’s like you

are that thing you know i get that on

the phone a lot from people too or they

say he has no shame he is shameless

he’s using drugs in my house he’s doing

this he’s doing that it’s like

he doesn’t have it he is it yeah that’s

what it is you know it’s not something

that he has it’s something that he is

and

when you put it like that people take a

step back

it’s not that’s not an accountability

issue that’s a

a place of being issue yes yeah when i

and i you are exactly right and i’ve

shared this on finding peace before but

you know i i’ve done a group on shame

and i love to ask like who in here feels

like they’re the worst person on the

planet and at least half the group

raises their hand

and i think you’re exactly right yes

they’re using drugs in your house not

because they don’t feel it but it’s

literally because oftentimes the very

things they’re telling themselves

they’re just reinforcing like if you if

i’m the worst person on the planet of

course i use drugs in my parents house

makes sense

right i’m the worst person on the planet

that’s what i’m calling myself and that

is a very shameful statement

and and not feeling shame is about

would be about like i’m trying to cause

harm to other people like i have malice

in my intent

and and i honest i’ve done this work for


single person

that i felt like has true malice that

they really are trying to be that

destructive you said something

in one of our um

in one of our trainings with admissions

you said people’s behaviors make sense

yeah and you say this to me all the time

people’s behaviors make sense

if you if you take that lens and you

look at everything through that lens the

behavior makes sense you can access way

more compassion for people

you

people do what they feel that they are

right and so

him hiding out in your basement you know

that totally makes sense yeah because

he’s because he’s the pos right because

he’s whatever yeah

people’s behaviors make sense that has

really helped me in a lot of situations

absolutely

so how do we build resilience with

people because that’s the opposite of

shame right is to to work on building

resilience

um within them and sam i’m going to

throw that question to you of course

i think it’s

compassion and empathy is the biggest

one which is so bernie brown of us

to say empathy is the it’s the light

that heals the dark part that we don’t

want people to see

empty for self empathy for others

sometimes when you can sit with another

person and you’re ashamed and they can

share their shame and you can have a

moment of you’re both in your shame and

it’s okay and you still value each other

care about each other and can

love each other after the fact

then there’s that empathy that we need

that we can heal and move forward with

love

yeah yeah

literally

compassion is it sit and suffering

that’s the breakdown you sit and you’re

suffering and you’re sitting together

together and that’s it right so

community i guess two powerful words me

too

me too that’s a big deal yeah that’s a

powerful statement there

that’s the double whammy you can sit and

do the me too

that’s it that’s your moment

man i’m gonna i’m gonna ask you maybe a

little bit more of a personal question

like have you built resilience for

yourself

in your journey

okay

i’ll tell you a story about a

shame storm

okay okay yeah usually there’s another

four-letter word on this i’ll tell you

something crazy um

so

early on when i was in treatment

i had a couple housemates that i was

feeling kind of close to you start kind

of dipping your toe in checking people

out maybe maybe they’re cool with me

maybe people want to be friends with me

you know you start

trying different things out and i will

never ever ever forget this

until the day that i die i was sitting

with someone that i really felt like we

were getting close and she said we’re

talking about family and i told her that

my brother was currently addicted to my

drug of choice and she goes what are the

odds of that that he would be he would

find the same thing that you’re on and i

said well no it makes sense because i

introduced him to it and and she stopped

and she looked disgusting she said i

have a brother i would never do that

and it still makes me a little emotional

because i’m still working too i’m still

human but all i needed to hear was like

oh me too or i’ve done something like

that

i have a brother i can’t imagine doing

that and it was just like a storm i mean

i was like this is no matter how much

progress i make this will always control

me

it doesn’t matter what i do how far i go

i will always carry this around with me

for the rest of my life

um

so in that moment i was able to just

think about

what other people had been telling me

that was working which was you are

enough i mean this was constant you’re

enough you’ve always been enough you’re

enough then you’ll always be enough so

i went into that mode and i had um

maybe it was you they said one of the

clinicians telling me that in that

moment and that’s what because i can’t

access that that self-compassion piece

we’re not there yet that’s light years

away at this point and that’s something

that was really helpful and now i can do

it for me some of the time

yeah

that’s it

well actually you just honestly modeled

resilience too by just kind of talking

through that story and

getting kind of caught up in it and i

think that takes a tremendous amount of

courage

but

that’s what weakens shame i think is

when we own our story the good the bad

the ugly i think that’s what

helps build our resilience always i

don’t know what do you what do you think

sam i think

it’s hard to speak to

resilience and things when we just

witnessed it and got to see

that you have compassion for yourself

that you trust two people

that you and i don’t know each other

well you and jason know each other for

years that

to sit down and sit in that with us i

just it’s an honor and i think talking

about it being an honor is important and

being able to say like thank you

for doing that is important in these

moments

past the educational piece

go grab a coffee later

that was fun we’ll let you guys have a

moment but um

sam i do feel i do feel like it’s

important like how how do you see our

curriculum kind of meeting people with

their shame and and how do we address it

kind of as an organization

yeah i think

the way that i’ve seen it done in groups

and i think you actually taught me how

to do it in these groups is kind of

facing it head-on is let’s bring it to

the surface

and then let’s remind you that you’re

good enough that you’re going to be

enough you have been and you will be

and i think we also implement this

beautiful thing of inner child work that

lets us um let your inner child know

that you were enough then too and lets

the grown-up version of you go back to

that inner child and bring it on this

journey of self-compassion and

self-acceptance i think is before

self-compassion we have to accept who we

are what we’ve done the child version of

ourselves what’s happened to us in order

to then move into that compassion piece

and i think our curriculum brings all of

that to surface

and then lets us sit with our clients

and say like you’re enough you’ve been

enough you’re always you know right

always this intrinsic value piece is so

hard

it’s a hard

if someone doesn’t have that intrinsic

value where do we even start like how to

treat other people how to treat yourself

forget it that that’s ground zero that

is like

the foundation of anything is are people

worth something not because of what they

do but because they exist yeah

i think all good treatment needs to

start right there right there that’s the

the core of this thing

yeah and

shane tells you

right everyone else has value like i can

see it in everybody else

it’s exactly right exactly except for

you it’s beautiful when we run the

groups and clients can look at each

other and say like i feel shame about

this and then we’re like can you say

that to anyone else in the room can you

say that to an inner child of yours

they’re like absolutely not no one else

deserves to hear that except for me

and that brings it to light when they

can be like oh

i also don’t deserve to hear that and

hearing those moments in groups and in

sessions when clients can say oh i also

don’t deserve that that’s when the light

switch changes for them and they can

start building that compassion and that

intrinsic value mm-hmm

[Music]

what i i have found it is amazing

um

it probably was me who told you you are

enough it is amazing just

um

making those efforts to um

begin to replace some of those messages

right because

ultimately the other thing that’s kind

of at the core of shame is that what we

really want is to be fully known and

fully accepted

and to have people be in relationship

with us anyway right like they accept us

even if they see all those things

and the other thing that i think um

we hold true and i actually was talking

about this with our with our leadership

on monday

um this last monday um

[Music]

they’re like

everybody we are all doing the best we

can when clients walk into our door that

hard story you just told about your

brother even in that moment

you were doing the best you could with

what you had

and um

[Music]

and when we can find that in people like

not only does people does all behavior

make sense in context

but people are really doing the best

they can even if it even if they’re

using and they’re in the basement of the

parents house and they’re going against

the rules and they’re violating their

probation or whatever might be happening

likely at the core they’re just

trying to do the best they can right and

that was a bid that was the bid there

maybe maybe we could be closer or i’d

have someone in this with me yeah that

behavior makes

sense yeah and then it’s easier to segue

into the forgiveness thing oh that

behavior makes sense i understand why i

did that at that time

when i hear you guys talking about this

i think of

moments in

individual sessions and in groups when

clients can say

that they

don’t blame their

younger self anymore that they blamed

themselves for this pain that they

are feeling and this when they can turn

around and say like i don’t blame myself

anymore like of course i was a 17 year

old kid struggling because of everything

around me like that makes sense to me

and it’s

i can’t talk about i tear up most of the

time talking about this but how

beautiful it is to watch a client

realize that sit in that and say like i

don’t i’m not mad at myself for that

anymore i can forgive my younger self

which inherently leads to forgiving

themselves now

touch and go as it comes up yeah as it

comes up because i’ve done that i’m like

i’m enough

and i believe it and it’s real and it’s

and i’m in it and it’s like it feels

great it feels great and then something

else might come up right something else

might come up oh my gosh we’re back

we’re back to square one that’s okay

that’s the deal i don’t know if there’s

ever a total resolution on

some of that we don’t need resolution we

see recovery that’s it and that feels a

little bit like the human condition of

right this is going to keep coming up

and there’s going to be tension between

like i feel bad about myself i feel bad

about this thing i feel poorly

and there’s tension there totally and

then leaning into that tension which is

the shame and then we can move on it

move on again and grow and have empathy

for ourselves again

that’s why i think we can throw out the

relapse prevention piece okay

what are you gonna do in your board or

what are you gonna do you know it’s like

people will actually get through those

things people will get through boredom

people will get through there’s

people are resilient

the whole relapse prevention could just

be like how do we how do we cope with

how do we wrestle with shame yeah

and that would be good enough that would

be actually the whole enchilada right

there yeah i think it’d be way more

successful than than the other thing you

talked about and i think it is what i

think we work pretty diligently to do

it it’s my it’s our focus i think as a

clinical team to say

we want to create the confidence to say

that when i bump into shame i know what

to do right

it doesn’t make it feel better in the

moment it doesn’t mean that like when

you are in the midst of

this or when you have an interaction

with somebody and

they hit your shame gremlin right where

you didn’t think it could be hit anymore

and you plunge into it um

we want to build a path a process an

understanding like okay i know i need to

reach out to people i can’t do this

alone i need to find my me too people

that can just sit with me and say i get

it i’ve been here too

full stop like there isn’t a solution

there’s just like

just having that empathy that that

person that can just sit in the dark

with you

um

and that’s what i think we are trying to

do is to say that right and i think

can can people walk out of peaks

and hopefully walk into a lower level of

care that’s older discussion and find a

way

to build have enough resilience to say

okay i know how to do this i can walk

this path i know because the other thing

shame lies all to me about anyway is

that i feel like i’m going to feel that

way forever this the moment the shame

gremlins come in i’m like this is it

i’m gonna i’m gonna feel like this

forever

um

and just finding that hope and that

process of being like okay i actually do

know

how to walk through this now i have a

path i have a process right

i think we as like the first people that

interact with our clients get to be the

people that show them that it’s there is

a me too there is

sitting with someone in the darkness

it’s not lonely and it’s not that which

then gives them the

courage

they build the courage to go out and

find other mewtwo people and find those

people for themselves and they get that

empowerment to be able to find it

because we’ve shown it to them yeah

so i think that’s part of that first

steps of it all is showing them that

they’re not alone in that

right

that’s why i love disclosure

i think

let’s go there like that’s why i think

it it’s so so important that

we are able to carefully and

thoughtfully disclose our experiences

there are times where it’s not helpful

for sure but like that’s an opportunity

to to help reduce or minimize or at

least just simmer down a little bit of

shame

worthwhile

absolutely worthwhile you know and

you also said something interesting

jason you said i am statements

are powerful and they are they have a

lot of power i am what

and that’s why i love the direction that

we’re moving because

i remember this too distinctly before

talking about shame walking into an old

school traditional meeting and they said

i said i’m a person in recovery and i

was really

just delighted yeah say that right and

they said we don’t say that here

i am what

i’m a person i am what oh i’m an

alcoholic i’m a drug addict our clients

are so much more than yeah yes

they are so much more than that and

that’s so reductive

and even that statement i am an addict

or an alcoholic if behaviors make sense

yeah

what does an addict do

use

what does an alcoholic do drug

there’s so much more than that i’m so

much more than that so

that’s my benefit and you are right from

the beginning like you you don’t become

more right

you are if you’re struggling with

addiction right now you’re still more

than your addiction it’s just really

masking it

so i think you know we’re kind of coming

up against the clock here but now you

shared kind of before

i want to take us out with with the

meditation you shared and this is the

type of thing we do like kind of a

little mindfulness to kind of walk

through all the time this sort of thing

um

so if you wouldn’t mind doing your

meditation and this is how we’ll kind of

end our episode love it okay

close your eyes

oh we’re doing it all right

we’re gonna go back to a time in your

mind

that you felt overwhelmed or totally

enveloped by shame

and then i want you to think about what

you needed to hear

after that moment

what you would have liked to hear after

that moment

and then

we’ll sit on that for a second

what you needed to hear in that moment

okay

now i want you to think about a person

or two people or three if it’s a real

bad shame spiral you were in

three people that you deeply respect

and admire

and then you can imagine them saying

that thing to you that you needed to

hear over

and over

and over

i’m enough that’s it i’m enough i’ve

always been enough i’ll always be enough

i’m enough

that’s it thank you for doing that

thank you what a what a great way to end

i do appreciate you both coming on the

show again i thank you for that

um

i’m jason friesman i’m signing off uh

like us on facebook instagram

the other ones

and tick tock

and we’ll do this again in a couple

weeks thank you all and have a good one