Episode 109

in meeting with clients that I’ve met with um there seems like there’s this inverse relationship where um as as kind of acting on sexual behavior goes up you know the ability to kind of be emotionally and physically intimate like in a real way goes down yeah would you say that’s fair [Music] hello welcome to another episode season three I think of finding Peaks I’m Jason friezma Chief clinical officer and you’ll notice we’ve had a change of set I think we are moving toward a podcast feel um and I’m really excited about it I’m hoping it’ll give us an opportunity to have even more intimate and close conversations joining me today uh Zach Lefevre Zach is a therapist primary therapist here at Peaks recovery and um came to us from Durango Colorado where he was working in crisis and I’m really excited to have Zach on today we are going to be kind of tackling the topic of sex addiction um obviously doing a lot of work in this space as far as mental health and substance use it is frequent that people do have ongoing process addictions so addictions that are not necessarily to a chemical or something but to a behavior or set of behaviors and sex addiction is certainly one that that we uh that we look at a fair amount so um Zach maybe start with let’s kind of Define what sex addiction even is like how do we Define that because I think it’s a pretty Broad range of behaviors that can fall under that yeah yeah I think that’s some of the issue um for many is what is it being to Define like what is sex addiction um I think that’s one of the questions that a lot of people ask um and and part of the problem is defining it um because like any addiction right it’s it’s uh it can be kind of um personal in terms of how they Define it yeah what what that label means for them and whatnot but um really the simplest way that I can think of of defining sex addiction is um involving the idea of Reliance and compulsive behavior and and involving some area of unwanted Behavior yeah so if there’s those three things um be now involved I think we can have a good idea of what’s going on yeah I think that makes a lot of sense and I know you know even looking at like the DSM and substance use disorder where there’s like a tolerance uh where you know that often happens with people with sex addiction behaviors kind of tend to ramp up um for people to receive the design right effect from that um a withdrawal can occur if somebody is into the bill if they aren’t acting out in that issue um great deal of time spent in that harming relationships causing harm towards mental health like on and on it goes and so um it is interesting how those parallels um manifest themselves I guess um so how how have you come across this as an interest in your in your therapeutic approach yeah you really start in grad school so I um as a male therapist and a primarily um you know non-male industry yeah if we can put it that way um probably fair I was at one of two male therapists at the first place that I worked in in private practice and so the influx of patients that I got of clients that I got were mainly men from the ages of 18 to 35 or 40. um and um and I think with the clients that I got was noticing that the most of them were coming in with some sort of unwanted sexual behavior that they wanted to talk about yeah and so that just kind of piqued my interest into what’s happening what’s going on how prevalent is this and you know the the world and the clients I’m going to interact with and then how does this relate with other you know mem Health disorders and so it’s kind of what got me started it was really just having clients come to me and be like this is what I want to talk about yeah yeah it is it is remarkable how um how tied this topic is to his shape right like I think uh I find people have plenty of Shame around substance addiction and even mental health issues but to talk about um sexual unwanted sexual behavior like people tend to really go into a shame spiral with that for sure um how and then how have you begun to approach that and how do we how do we talk about it at Peaks I I think that’s an interesting question yeah yeah um so I I’ll go into a little bit of how I learned to talk about it yeah before I became a therapist and so I grew up in what is called Purity culture right so this idea of um you know um very sheen-based culture uh you know if you’re not Pure or whatever that word means right then um then you’re a bad person and so that’s kind of the world I grew up in and um and I think that’s what I know since that’s where a lot of my clients came from as well um and so um you know I think what that means is coming in with like you said the involvement of Shame and to have a conversation um and and I think you know with shame there’s what I believe are two antidotes is kindness and curiosity um and so just asking my clients like are you willing to enter into this space about talking about this and trying to be kind to yourself and being curious about what’s gone yeah yeah I think that makes that makes a ton of sense and I think that can be so relieving of that shame for sure and I know certainly in the work that I’ve done uh with clients on this sex addiction issue um I took from that um kind of the the there’s these three concentric circles um that SAA talks about sex addiction Anonymous talks about um that I was trained on when I did the certified sex addiction therapist training module I think through the meadows and um these concentric circles uh require people kind of in that middle circle to Define uh it they call it the red circle like the things that they want the behaviors they want to eliminate right and and that takes some work and some time like again with with if somebody comes in addicted to heroin like it’s really obvious you want to stop using heroin right like that’s that becomes really apparent but I think it takes some time and some uh some clever clinical work I think to walk through the behaviors that people want to eliminate that would that they would then consider themselves sober if you will from those behaviors and then the next circle out was kind of the yellow circle and those were like the the warning signs like maybe you know being on the internet when everyone else was in bed or or you know driving down certain streets or you know texting people after a certain time that don’t necessarily mean that somebody’s in a relapse but it does mean that somebody’s kind of in that that warning sign area and then the the green circle of that kind of contained information about like these are the things that are going to keep me these are the things I want to go toward if you will like you know whether it’s some sort of meditation a prayer or uh meetings or therapy or whatever I don’t know are you sure with that model at all and like yeah yeah a little bit yeah and I think I think that works in really nicely actually with a lot of process addictions because it takes some time I think to identify what exactly people are needing to treat and what they want to work on and how they’re knowing they’re being successful in that process yeah yeah and that kind of ties into right we’ve had this shift of of language and we as we talk about it because for a long time it was referred to as problematic Behavior yeah but that got into like who defines what’s problematic right um and so you know I think the key term that I use with clients is unwanted like if it’s unwanted then that’s something or if you’re the one that’s saying it’s problematic right that we can go there but um like if it’s something that you want to change then that um you know that’s that’s key that’s something we can talk about yeah so you mentioned the Purity culture a little bit um which you know I found also like implies it for a lot of shame to be honest with you and there isn’t a lot of gray area or ability to kind of explore sexuality in that culture um what other factors do you think kind of Drive uh sex addiction yeah yeah so I think I think we can look at it from a diagnostic Latins where we can say you know there is really no diagnosable condition called this exercise sex addiction right um you know there there’s there was some kind of back and forth about trying to get a hypersexuality disorder but in the DSM I think most recently that was shot down um yet uh so I think that the best way that I’ve come to think about sex addiction um and I think what research supports is that it’s more about intimacy than it is about sex itself yeah um and so as we come to approach it and whether it’s in treatment or just in conversation I think looking at it as more of an intimacy disorder probably frames it in the best light because we find that it’s it’s less about the actual Act of sex or whatever the behavior is that they don’t want and it’s more about the desire for connection and I think that’s really important okay will you unpacked it a little more like okay so because I I could see that being a little bit of a leap going from intimacy or sex addiction is an intimacy disorder like we’re bridge that Gap like it seems like there’s space there yeah yeah um so I think it I think it the bridge has to do with this big word in psychology and counseling called attachment yeah um so for for a long time um and and still the primary view of sex addiction is that um it has to do with uh maybe we can say where it comes from is usually some sort of insecure attachment from you know when you were younger or some sort of uh traumatic situation uh and so um or what they sat yeah what about yeah yeah and so often together and so what they found is um I think what we’re seeing is is that um as we we look at what sex provides right there is you know there is the the um the actual feeling it provides in terms of like the neurochemical response of you know it feels good and then you know pleasure is something that can humans enjoy but it also provides a sense of connection that I think is at the core of human heart desire which is to feel wanted and seen and known and um and so um I think that’s that’s the that’s yeah hence the bridge and it seems like in in meeting with clients that I’ve met with um there seems like there’s this inverse relationship where um as as kind of acting out sexual behavior goes up remember the ability to kind of be um emotionally and physically intimate like in a real way goes down yeah would you say that’s fair yeah yeah I think so because you know as like you said earlier um the uh you know when the brain gets those those certain neural chemical reaction that feels good you know it shuts down some of those receptors and it’s like that’s too much and so you know we need more and more each time to fill that same amount of pleasure yeah that same Good Feeling um and so we uh often that results in like escalation of behavior or you know the that the normal or typical way we would typically we would find that connection of intimacy no longer works yeah um and so we have to be creative and we have to find new ways to feel wanted and and and so that you know that often can lead to a diminished whether it’s with a partner or whether it’s with even you know friends that can lead to diminished real world relationships because those no longer provide that chemical response we’re looking forward I think it’s that’s a great way to look at it how how does um pornography itself kind of work its way into here because I yeah yeah it’s obviously tied in there yeah yeah absolutely um it can be yeah yeah and I think so pornography is an interesting one um because there is like even not from from just a research level like there is plenty of research to show like what it does to the brain and how it you know just impacts our um ability to engage in and you know intimate relationships in the real world scenarios um but really it’s it’s sex without the risk right it’s it’s our it’s connection without the risk of rejection um and I think that’s an important thing to think about because I think the risk is makes it worth it is when we think about what makes a really good intimate relationship whether it’s a marriage or whether it’s a friendship it’s the risk of what if this goes wrong and being able to work through that but pornography gets rid of that risk and says you just get to feel good stuff and you’re by yourself and so you get to control what’s happening and there’s that challenge there yeah fair and I think I I’ve noticed two um the reward that you mentioned with that that can come with pornography tends to be pretty sure right like I think I think risk and reward um like being emotionally intimate with a partner or with your friends is high-res certain higher risk than not um but the reward of that is that intimacy and that connection which is I think what we are actually wired to receive right like I think um as people we have this need for connection and uh it can get distorted pretty quickly I think in terms of sex addiction right um how I you haven’t been at Peaks an incredible amount of time but like how has this worked into kind of how we treat how you treat clients uh here at Peaks yeah yeah I mean we look at it like the treatment for sex addiction is really not that much different than the treatment for you know what we would call typical addiction uh whether it be with substances or yeah um you know it’s uh we find that you know the this idea of kind of this desire for connection and attachment is the same is there just as you know it is for a substance addiction as it is for a sexual addiction and so treatment really doesn’t look that different um and so um you know what I find is different is the is the uh maybe the shame that is brought in around it yeah and the conversation that they’re willing to have is not one that’s as opening group as it is in like an individual session where they’re probably less likely to go into the sexuality conversation in a group group context there’s even though that’s probably where it’s going to help them out yeah but are more willing to go with like their individual therapist yeah talk about it what I think I mean even the things that we’ve mentioned too like attachment style we look at that at Peaks and kind of explore that with people um we also mentioned that you know some on some trauma or um sometimes uh unwanted sexual contact and that sort of thing can lead to these types of behaviors and those are also things that we deal with um because I do think again kind of quoting TJ Woodward from conscious recovery again that you know honestly acting out sexually is it tends to be This brilliant strategy for coping with whatever it is whether it’s this anxious Dutchman Iraq or uh avoidant attachment or insecure attachment um or whether it’s kind of dealing with the pain from trauma or um you know even kind of neglect from childhood and that sort of thing or just um or kind of some stunted development sexually due to Purity culture where one wasn’t able to kind of talk and explore on these domains um we do I think work pretty diligently I think to to work on those underlying issues and kind of um help with that right I kind of I guess I kind of look at it too like this um there’s outside in work to do which is about kind of building what what does sexual sobriety if you will look like and that doesn’t mean not having sex by the way all right really right yeah it’s like it’s a sex positive approach I’m sure um but there’s some outside in like what are the behaviors that have to change what are behaviors that need to be added there’s that also inside out uh Journey that people have to go on as well where they get to kind of explore what are some of these underlying issues and what can kind of relieve some of my desire to kind of act out in these ways too and and I think it’s important to say too it’s not just behavior modification right like we’re not just talking about like how do we behave in a way that makes us feel better about ourselves or how do we behave in a way that aligns more with my values I think it’s it’s how do I because I think in that conversation right is is this idea of you know there’s this term they call sexual incongruence right where if if you have this value of like maybe maybe let’s use Purity right let’s use like abstinence as a value yeah and then you are unable to for whatever reason live up to that value right that’s where cognitive dissonance steps in because you have this this whole gap of like my values don’t matter with my behavior I don’t know what to believe about myself and so um you know I think this stepping into the conversation and talking about um you know what it is you value what it is I ask clients all the time you know I help them establish uh what I call a kingdom right what do you love what do you hate those bad establishes like the kingdom that’s ahead of you that you have in front of you and and what um you know what Behavior if you want to just talk about Behavior what Behavior fits into that Kingdom that Kingdom you have in terms of helping you go towards the things you love and avoiding the things you hate
that may that makes a ton of sense how so put sex addiction into your kingdom metaphor yeah what did people like give a practical example if you could yeah yeah other words yeah so um in that Kingdom metaphor right we have we have this idea of um um like let’s imagine someone as the ruler of the victim right so they they’re in charge of you know how it looks and what’s happening and the you know all that stuff and so they get to pursue the things they loved and they get to avoid the things that that bring them displeasure um and so you know it’s if someone loves um some love sex if someone loves connection if someone loves um you know exploring their sexuality those are things they actually love how do we do that in a way that promotes wholeness and integrity and whatever they want to Define that as so um and then on that dislike or the hate side which is a pretty strong word but on the hate side of stuff like maybe they um I’ll talk to clients about you know the hate the feeling of being lonely the feeling of being by themselves they hate that you know the the disconnection that comes with pornography they hate that aspect of it and so what are the changes we can make to still find those those kind of like fulfillment pieces of it that you can live into and pursue the things that you loved while avoiding the things that really just make you unhappy yeah I mean it’s certainly what I appreciate about what you say is it’s obviously a very um client-centered approach where people um we’re not kind of pushing our values onto somebody and that’s what gets tricky around this too and um I think a lot of early kind of sex addiction treatment kind of came from that Purity culture too um of like get fully abstinent again and cut it back um into what would be a traditional view of sexuality and I think there’s a lot of room to operate in in your kingdom if you will um of healthy sexual behavior and and for some right because it’s so individual it might re-nap sometimes for a period of time yeah like it just like just like we go into you know sepsis addiction like it might mean a complete abstinence of sobriety for a period of time yeah um and so really it’s just kind of person-specific and depends on the client itself yeah that that is an interesting point um because I have I have seen a use that I I can obviously say I’ve asked some clients to do that too where it’s like the the compulsive and obsessive behavior is so intense that um a short-ish period of celibacy just um is a way to kind of hit the reset button and kind of um I think it would be similar to what kids today call a tolerance break or something on like cannabis seats or something where it’s like I gotta take a minute and like kind of yeah and hit the reset button and that does take some time yeah and it also helps kind of make this distinction for them between like that they can still be intimate that it doesn’t mean they have to be sexual right um and Sam at the same time sexuality also doesn’t include physical contact and so you can have you know they can still explore their sexuality and and you know I’d be in Internet relationships that doesn’t mean they have to actually do have sex yeah um and so I think that’s an important distinction because often they you know clients will get into this this framework of like the only way I can you know be intimate with someone is through you know this behavior that I want to stop and so I I don’t know how to actually have relationships you know friendships even right um without without this behavior and so having them make this distinction of like intimacy and physical activity right that’s something that can be really helpful for some yeah in it’s certainly like offering tools to help people learn how to be intimate yeah learn how to identify our emotions so they can share those with other people we have to have a conversation or not be open to learn how to listen yeah I think I mean I think it starts with intimacy with self yeah right like one of my favorite Frameworks to kind of uh work with people uh trying to work through some unwanted Behavior I know you are a fan of it as ifs yeah right which is all about kind of reducing the shame behind um you know parts of ourselves that act in ways we don’t want to yeah and trying to develop curiosity about like what’s the actual desire there like what’s what’s the good yeah and what’s happening right um and that we can we can show compassion towards ourselves in that moment and don’t have to be like you’re doing a bad thing yeah no that’s exactly right I you know I do love to say too that all Behavior makes sense in context and when we can understand our own context of our behaviors and without the judgment and be like okay I see how I got here we can find and Foster some compassion trying to think for ourselves oftentimes yeah all right well um I appreciate this conversation Zach um I think it’s been helpful I think this is an issue that isn’t talked about enough I think it’s in it’s a it’s a thing that a lot of people I think want to talk about and need to talk about but it’s hard to find a space to do that so I appreciate you for coming on and of course um on to your first podcast and uh talked about sex addiction yeah these years talk like NFL football or something that this is probably more important I could probably talk more about this than that okay that’s probably sure all right we said we’ll go ahead and sign off um please find us at peaksrecoverycenters.com or look us up on Google uh and follow us on Facebook with that we are out foreign