Episode 53

empathy is knowing your own darkness

without that connection you don’t have

anything what’s the opposite of

addiction just freedom

hey everybody and welcome to another

amazing episode of finding peaks you

have yours truly chris burns grateful

recovering president and founder

we have our chief clinical officer um my

right-hand man jason friesman licensed

professional counselor and we have

madeline frye

no license prevail licensed professional

counselor as well that is the first time

i actually got her last name right um

she corrected me today so now i’m how

were you saying it fray frame yeah yeah

it looks like free kind of reads that

way yeah

yeah it does

but we are so excited to bring to you um

another topic within our curriculum

we’re going to be talking about identity

and purpose but i wanted to jump into

something i think really meaningful

before we get into that and

i had both of these individuals

in my gym this morning in the pain cave

we were talking a little bit about

before the show kind of getting a sweat

in before breakfast and more

specifically doing that in the midst of

connection and kind of what that does

for our mental health what it does for

our clarity and what i was talking to

the guys about this morning in circle

was like i need to foster that greatness

so that i can share it with you all i

can’t get to work and expect myself to

to get to a place where i can extend

these emotional opportunities or extend

these connective opportunities if i

don’t take great care of myself and i

kind of like in those morning routines

to kind of put that that uh oxygen mask

on first before we go and do it for the

people that we love and cherish within

the program and so i just wanted to chat

with you a little bit about your routine

in the morning and how it allows you and

enables you to show up as

a good professional but an even better

human

yeah yeah

um yeah i think for me in particular um

i

have my own journey that i’ve walked

with anxiety and it it’s been really

important for me to to realize and to

hone in that one of the things that

helps me the most is physical activity

and and that can have a lot of different

forms i

have kind of narrowed it down to really

liking um like weightlifting and cardio

stuff like crossfit specifically and and

i just found that if i if i do that i

feel more in tune with my body

i feel more in tune with my routine

it it helps me just feel like i’m on the

right path for the day

it’s also really important for me to

know how i’m doing so if i’m exhausted

or if i have a late night if i have a

lot going on it’s important for me to

have flexibility in that that i know

it’s okay if i sleep in i know that it’s

fine if it’s not perfectly in the

routine and just having like that

flexibility and grace that i can offer

myself but um it’s just it’s a great

thing for me to be able to incorporate

and i found that it does help a lot as

far as just mental health and well-being

goes yeah that’s huge you actually bring

up a really interesting point you like

get to

you get to know yourself that day and

that workout and where you’re at yeah

because the workout will be really

honest with you especially if you’re

being dishonest with yourself

and i love that getting under a bar but

i’ll be like wow i don’t

have what i had yesterday and i can be a

little bit more mindful and maybe enact

some self-compassion and i don’t have to

be shot out of a cannon

because that tends to be

counterproductive that’s really cool

i’ve actually never heard it explained

that way

i want to ask you guys so you guys work

out with our clients

uh often in crossfit gym and all that

how yeah how do you see that helping the

people at peaks

oh man i can think of a specific story

where there’s a

girl that had been

just walking through a variety of

substance use issues she had a variety

of mental health concerns and she was so

ready to commit and just wanted to be

well and so she showed up with this

attitude of i’m just going to try

whatever is put in front of me and she

walked into the crossfit gym for the

first time and i think her eyes were as

big as dinner plates and she was like

this place looks terrifying

and she was like maddie please don’t

make me do this and i was like we’re

just gonna do it together right we’re

just gonna take it one step at a time

and she walked out and she was like

that was weird and really hard but i did

it and and then i realized that just

because it looks scary doesn’t mean i

can’t do it and then she ended up

talking about ways that she could

incorporate similar types of activities

after she discharged

and she’s still doing really well and so

it’s just it’s really cool to see people

using it as a platform to challenge

themselves in a way that they haven’t

before um and that’s really fun to kind

of just be a part of and kind of get to

say like we’ll do it together that’s

exceptional i actually think i know who

you’re talking about yeah it’s really

really cool and to watch those lights

turn off and watch them integrate it

into their community i guess the best

story i can come up with is we had a

male client who showed up to us in a

walker

um and he came in in a walker and he

couldn’t walk and he’s dragging his

right foot and he’s got a tremendous

alcohol detox to walk through and i

remember i sat with him at crossfit and

we just sat over in the corner of the

bench he couldn’t even he couldn’t even

sit up he had to sit against the wall

and i said man we’re gonna get over

there he’s like i’ll never make it over

there and i said absolutely we will but

we’re going to work on these arms and we

did some curls and we just talked and we

just shared space together we watched

them work out he got a good arm pump in

was nothing crazy and then after a few

weeks of meeting me in there on a

thursday i come in on a thursday i’m

like

yo where’s uh so-and-so and they’re like

and i look over and he’s on a rower

and he goes we got some things to talk

about chris and i’m like oh my gosh man

i went home i told my wife there’s this

guy he’s overcoming adversity and then i

get to go see him up in denver and he’s

integrating that stuff he’s out hiking

he’s going to phoenix multi-sport he’s

connected with this physical side of

which before he came to peaks and most

certainly in his initial stages and

peaks he thought was never

possible

and so i love how that physical activity

wherever it’s at whoever it’s with it

tends to turn on

this side of my brain that says i can

and turn off the side that i can’t but

even more specifically

i find it creates a lot of vulnerability

and when we are able to get in that

vulnerable space i think we can connect

with whole hearts and really enact

tremendous change

even even when we were working out with

jason the other day he got done doing a

squat or maybe it was a shoulder press

or something and he came out of it he

said whoa

i don’t know what came up there i’m just

getting a little emotional i said give

me a hug dude let’s go

happens once a week

and i just love that and for the viewers

i think it’s important especially if

you’re sitting back watching me i’m not

going to do crossfit with maddie and

chris that’s crazy yeah it’s not we meet

everybody where they’re at sometimes we

walk together sometimes we sit together

at times we cry together and oh yeah we

do this physical thing called crossfit

occasionally as well but it’s

the opportunity to engage in that is so

much bigger than anything physical

and that’s what i love about it and i

think it mirrors this

um

a beautiful path that i see so many

people have to go on just as far as

recovery is in general by asking

yourself what have i been doing up until

this point that i’m willing to change

and it’s

it’s such a big ask and it’s so

uncomfortable

but i think one of the beautiful things

that i’ve seen happen over and over and

over again as people get to the point

where they’re like

let’s just try it let’s just see what

happens and then when they do it it just

creates this sense of self-efficacy

where it’s like i can i can try

something and i can accomplish something

and just because it’s hard doesn’t mean

i can’t um that’s that’s what courage is

right like feeling afraid and doing it

anyway

um and there’s a guy in particular he um

came in and was just really unfamiliar

with all of this stuff and had some

extra weight on him and he he was

willing and he showed up and he just did

these things all over um i mean

repeatedly throughout the program and

not only did he lose a lot of weight but

what he was saying was

now whenever i feel something whenever i

have an emotion or i’m experiencing

anxiety

my body tells me and because i’m using

it

now i know how to respond to it or at

least i have the opportunity to create

space for myself to take care of myself

and that’s really really cool you know

we’ll we’ll do some mindfulness stuff

for some

breathing activities where you know

we’ll like put our hand on a stomach and

a hand on her heart and and feel what it

feels like to breathe and just see the

anxiety

dispel from someone or

they start feeling more grounded after

that and it’s just a really cool process

that we see that when someone is willing

to engage and try something new and they

start using their body their body

actually gives them information

and and they can use that as an

emotional regulation and grounding skill

um that doesn’t it’s not just when

they’re working out it also goes into

like the rest of their day as well and

that comes up in session that comes up

in conversations it’s um i don’t know

it’s a beautiful thing and it’s fun to

be a part of yeah yeah that’s really

cool too and in an effort too in that

direction is like then you once you

identify and

come to grips or become relational with

your body then it’s something you can be

safe inside as well

which is really really cool to watch

that grow

so thank you for that

so the topic today is actually identity

and purpose and i think it’s a great

dovetail off of this crossfit as well

because

often times i’m in there when i’m

cheerleading everybody and check it out

if you come to peaks you’ve never had a

cheerleader like me

but never

unless you went to a m they got really

good male cheerleaders

they’re pretty strong

yeah but

i go in there and i say and i’m

screaming at the top of my lungs i said

i know it doesn’t say on our website but

you’re going to come here and be a

better athlete too

we didn’t read it

i watched my language

we didn’t read it in the small print but

you’re going to be a better athlete and

i look at some of these especially

mature adults who come in and don’t

think they would ever be in a ladder

drill and then they come through and

just watching them light up when i say

that because what i see behind their

eyes is a sense of purpose a sense of

belonging a sense of feeling a part of

which has been a big part of my identity

and recovery is feeling a part of this

group

and being a person in long-term recovery

from a mental health disorder which i

used to use substances to cope so i want

to

throw it over to you we’re actually in

the midst of identity and purpose and

discussing a lot of this but

maddie if you would what are some of

your

favorite components in that week and

what does it look like yeah um so i’ve

been working with the women specifically

this week on identity and purpose and

the curriculum as we’ve built it has a

variety of tools and theories that we

kind of weave in

just to help people gain insight into

some of the things that make them who

they are and i think one of the things

that um

we see consistently is that when

someone’s in the midst of their

addiction or when someone’s in the midst

of

working through mental health concerns

they start to believe that that’s the

the substance of their identity right

that that is the thing that makes up who

they are and and they and they lose

sight of that they um

it it just becomes something that

they’re not super clear on anymore and

so um so for example you know we worked

through um this thing called enneagram

this week and it’s just a thing that

helps people understand more of their

personality based on basic fears and

basic desires and so we engaged with

that

and then incorporated

what’s called eric erickson’s theory of

psychosocial development which looks at

stages of life and certain virtues that

are developed

as someone goes through like conflicts

so say the conflict is between

intimacy or isolation in your early

adulthood

people resolve that conflict by engaging

in meaningful relationships

and then they consider what happens if

you know you go through a variety of

unsuccessful relationships or feel

discouraged

and we also talk about something called

maslow’s hierarchy of needs

and basically what all this is doing is

putting things together that help people

realize that

there are contributing factors to um

what they’re dealing with it’s not who

they are

these are the things that have come up

or what they’ve been through or

developmental ruptures that have

happened

it’s not it’s not who they are as a

person and so we we inject some

compassion and some grace for ourselves

into how we think about who we are um

that helps um negate that shame a little

bit um and then we start talking about

well if you’re not that then who are you

and that’s when we start talking about

values and we start talking about

purpose and we start talking about

envisioning a better world for

themselves and where they get to be

really specific about some of the things

that they want to see if they are able

to lean into their values and if they

are able to have greater self-compassion

and less shame

so that’s kind of what we’ve been

working on so far this week nice i love

that to to come in and out and really

create that iden i was just in group

this morning with a mature adult and i

said

and i’ll ask this question often when i

first meet people i say in your best

guess

why do you abuse substances with such

intensity

and a lot of times mature adults they’ll

say i just you know i’ve just always

been a drinker i’m a drinker i’ve always

been an alcoholic i just like drinking

my parents drank i drank and i’m just a

drinker’s drinker

and i’m like gosh to your point i just

think you’re so much more than that you

are so much more than that and i get to

see these humans in front of me that

have kind of consolidated their identity

and their purpose to this tiny cup

and it’s some of the saddest stuff that

i get to see but one of the greatest

things i get to see is when they pop out

of a curriculum like identity and

purpose and they’re like

i have a real chance i’ve been able to

formulate something that can be

sustainable and really intentional and

it kind of redescribes

who i am

right it probably pulls away from that

negative self-talk as well at the same

time

well i think you know when we were

developing the curriculum um

i was i was hearkening back to uh like

clients

i used to talk in group about like hey

the the removal of the cup that you just

said of of substance use

and maybe other mental health stuff like

you remove that cup

and you’re left with this beautiful

blank canvas like you can begin to build

your life on there

and i had i would frame it in a way that

it was this exciting thing that like you

have all this opportunity

and i remember looking in groups often

and just seeing

terror and fear of like i don’t know

what’s left

uh if i if i remove these substances or

if i don’t if i’m not kind of crippled

by my depression or anxiety or whatever

i don’t

i don’t know what is there

and

you know it kind of stemmed from there

to be like you know what this isn’t just

like one group like where we have a

little chat about what to put on there

like we have to have a we have to really

do a deep dive on this to really help

people

find themselves

and to your point chris you know like um

it’s so critically important i think

to move well beyond i’m an addict or i i

am depressed i am these things what else

are you i it it’s wide and it’s vast and

um it’s nuanced and and maddie you

mentioned the word shame i think people

often get hung up on uh

get stuck in that spot of like i’m never

going to be better i’m never

going to figure all these things out and

i think you did a great job kind of

talking about

um how we kind of carefully walk people

toward finding out more about themselves

being curious about that

and it’s kind of the removal of all of

those things all of that shame and

saying over here

you know this is your personality this

is where you got a little hung up in

your past

and then this is how you can begin to

manage and walk through your fears and

how you can begin to find and identify

yourself and and be proud of who you are

and you know because when people walk in

um i i’ve told this story a few times

like they do literally feel like they’re

the worst people on the planet a lot of

people walk in the peaks feeling like

they’re the worst person on the planet

on the planet and um that’s a lot to

walk through especially as we remove the

thing driving that shame um

but also kind of creating an identity uh

what’s left and how do we begin to build

that

yeah

yeah i mean that that’s huge and we have

these interesting parallels at peaks

recovery too because you got someone

coming in in their first week and

someone leaving in their sixth and i had

that parallel this morning in group and

are in my circle and um one of the folks

that was new in recovery he couldn’t

help but define himself as that

the person that was on his way out he’s

like all i know is i can do everything

in my life except for that

you know and he’s like and i have all of

this i got relationships i have a

beautiful wife i got 10 and 11’s at

night chris i got a coffee with you next

week i just can’t wait i’m hanging with

my wife here in colorado springs and it

was just like you could see these

parallels running and i get chills

talking about it because that’s the hope

and that person was able to turn to the

person who left today i think was your

client

and go

all right man i can see the light at the

end of the tunnel this makes sense yeah

you know um but i’ve been mired in and

that took

alcoholics anonymous 1935 i mean they

were really

giving people identity it was much

different than it is now we’re trying to

grow out of that alcoholic addict

identity but it was brilliant yeah they

brought these people in you said hey

you’re not nobody you’re an alcoholic in

long-term recovery and you help people

and i can remember just what that energy

felt like to be helpful

to anyone for anything for any reason

and when you enact some identity and

give people a little bit of purpose and

allow them to and that’s what i love the

way we do it we allow them to define

that

um it can really turn those lights on

pretty clearly

um well i think

there are constraints to the alcoholics

anonymous approach because like you kind

of still have to keep the cup central

yep

and i think i think we find that it’s

helpful to acknowledge the cup and and

own that cup

but don’t own a lot of other things

beyond that cup as well not just the cup

yeah most definitely and we’re

understanding now it is all about mental

health yeah

but it was brilliant for

that time

yeah absolutely innovative for sure yeah

especially some of the concepts too that

kind of match today like they don’t call

it shame yeah right they call it self

yeah or whatever it might be you know so

yeah and it was cool um talking with him

on his way out and

and he said

it feels it feels strange and unfamiliar

but i’m proud of myself

and it was it was really cool talking to

him because you could see that he was

holding on to some emotion yeah and i

was like

can you say that again

yeah

he was like

i’m proud of myself and he’s like maddie

you’re not gonna make me cry my last day

i was like you already are yeah

damn it i love

because he was he was so genuine and so

relieved and had such a clear picture of

who he was

and you can’t help but be inspired by

that it’s just such a cool thing to be a

part of it really is

we see it a lot too with mature adults

who have had some successes you know had

a career had a college degree and then

you know find themselves coping with

substances in their late 30s or early


you see that identity just get

completely discombobulated and they just

don’t think they can get it back

specifically the client you’re speaking

about when he came in i mean it was just

hopeless

and

it’s a long fall when you built an

identity

you know some it’s easier for people

that are 17 18 19 years old they haven’t

built as much of an identity but if you

built a career in a family and all those

things are now

uh in jeopardy or you’re feeling awful

about it like that’s a that’s a big fall

it’s really tough yeah you see it

sometimes with young people as well

especially

athletes in school you know for me i

i didn’t grow up with anything other

than i’m either an addict and i do all

this horrific this bad stuff or i’m this

athlete sometimes too and that was nice

you know and that was a breath of fresh

air and um i didn’t play college sports

or even close but i remember leaving

high school and i’m like

i’m not

a basketball player anymore and don’t

play football i’m not getting paid for

this who am i and i remember turning

very intentionally and energetically and

being like you’re this bad person

you know and so i see it with young

people as well and it might be sport it

could be church it could be community

something that was here today and kind

of shifted tomorrow

i see that be pretty detrimental for

young people as well

and it’s helpful giving people two

options

of different ways to think about

themselves because i think what you’re

exactly to your point right you had

basketball player and you had

a bad person right and and because one

was gone you were able to then just

really focus on the other

and i think it’s helpful just for people

to have the book open in front of them

and say i can identify um in this realm

in this realm you know my hobbies my

interests my values my passions my

relationships and have all these

different ways to think about themselves

that gives them a deeper sense of

purpose and a deeper sense of relating

to the world in a meaningful way

what do you real quick and i know we

don’t have a lot of time left but that’s

brilliant and just brings up another how

do you get people out of that how do you

do you

i try i find myself explaining kind of

these rudiment these rooted kind of

foundational stuff within our

developmental process but how do you get

people out of their shame

with this stuff do you explain hey a lot

of this stuff is in the past or i mean

can you explain that a little bit for

the viewers

um

i

i mean obviously shame is sticky like it

is probably one of the um

feelings that just trips people up the

most and everyone feels it um it’s such

a universal feeling but it’s the thing

that leads to disconnection because

shame is the the feeling that that

leaves you feeling small and not worthy

of connection um and

and i think on the road to addressing

shame um

it’s

it’s so important and one of the things

that i try to help my clients focus on

is

in the thing that you don’t want to

connect over and the thing that you

don’t want people to know

what is one small aspect that you can

find compassion for just one teeny tiny

aspect and even if it’s

not excusing something or making sense

of it or writing it off is not a big

deal can you at least turn to yourself

and say that must have been so hard for

you

to go through something like that or to

feel so isolated or feel so alone

finding some way to humanize it i think

gives people a fighting chance to then

dismantle it a little bit further but

it’s tough it comes up over and over and

over again and it evolves and it finds

new ways to come up and attack

everyone um so it’s definitely an

ongoing conversation but i i would say

probably start there yeah

that’s a great way to explain how about

you jay yeah i was just going to add i

think you answered that brilliantly but

i think

you know the piece i add too is i

i think a lot of times things happen to

us when we’re kids

and then we feel shame about it and then

we we look back with our adult brain and

and we’re like why didn’t why wasn’t i

smarter why didn’t i do this or why

didn’t i do that

and we take our adult brain and then

judge ourselves for like why didn’t i

act like an adult when i was five or six

why didn’t i protect myself why didn’t i

stand up for myself why did i allow this

to happen why did i do all those things

so finding that compassion

i mean i’ve had

people get pictures of themselves from

when they were kids to be like you

expected this little kid or i’ll you

know just i’ll paint a picture of like

you know a five-year-old is this tall

and they weigh

you know not very much and uh and they

should be worried about their abcs and

uh

and numbers and

learning how to share and be nice and

you were enduring this whole other thing

like i sometimes i can verbally paint

the picture in a way that hopefully can

build some compassion

um because it is that shame is just that

self-judgment of like

something is fundamentally wrong with me

and often like it’s just amazing how

much of that we just carry from our

childhood usually and and finding some

compassion for

to acknowledge like i was actually doing

the best i could yeah

yeah and the reason i ask is i get it a

lot in my circle i sit with guys who are

you know um have been to multiple i had

multiple treatment episodes and i’ll say

you know things like you know this stuff

is informed and they’ll say look at all

the terrible stuff i’ve done

look at that

and i’m like it’s it’s informed by

something yeah and you guys say that a

lot better than i do somebody steal that

[Laughter]

but it is it’s just like can i offer can

i get you to speak to a compassionate

component even just a sliver just one

tiny shift in the opposite direction

because asking someone to just

completely dismantle their shame is

is frankly too big of an ask straight

out of the gate

because i think shame actually serves as

protection if shame keeps you small

it keeps you disengaged there’s a chance

that maybe you won’t get hurt or you

won’t feel embarrassed or guilty again

and so if it keeps you small it actually

serves a function and we have to honor

that first but there’s a part that we

have to set aside and say and you’re

also keeping me from connecting maybe to

the full existence extent that i could

um

so what’s human about that what can i

connect to where’s the compassion yeah i

love that and that’s why in 2022 and

this will be for another episode

why the 12-step model doesn’t work quite

as well today because it actually keeps

us a little bit smaller than i think we

need to be and that’s a tough place to

be

so well thank you all for coming on this

has been absolutely amazing very

educational for me

everybody’s glad they got to watch you

uh have an educational experience no

it’s good but i hope it was just as

amazing for everybody else thank you

guys for coming on it’s been phenomenal

um you know what time it is chris burns

bringing on

good pro great professionals but even

better humans yeah that’s what we do

please find us next time uh sunday at 6

p.m is when we jump on

but you can find us on spotify i’ve

heard um instagram tick tock i’m the

brand ambassador we had


we are moving on up organically viral

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