Episode 113

so when it comes to mental health and it comes to working with anybody doesn’t matter what we’re dealing with whether it’s neurodevelopmental disabilities autism ADHD or we’re talking about mental health anxiety depression what happens is we want to make sure that our physiology and our neurology working [Music] together hello everybody and welcome to another episode of Finding Peaks your host Chris Burns president and founder so grateful to be here today so grateful to be back on the show but even more excited about my guest today Dr Jennifer hul welcome to the show thank you absolutely Dr Jennifer hul works here in Colorado Springs a couple days a week as well as up in Castle Rock um she is a PhD psychophysiologist licensed marriage and family therapists as well as EMDR certified board certified Behavior analysts as well did I miss anything no okay awesome so grateful to have you on the show and I know I mentioned this earlier I had an opportunity to connect with Jen about a week ago kind of planning for for this show and whatnot and um as we were going through it I certainly and what you all see today she’s uh very well qualified educated and insightful on the topics that we’re going to discuss but bigger than all of that she’s an even better human she cares deeply about the people that she works with she believes in full healing and this opportunity that we have to walk together into recovery into full healing and so she has me really excited to have her on the show today um I want to bring up one of the first lines that’s on your website okay and you say that you’re a family therapist and you believe that healing comes or recovery comes when you connect the head or the mind and the body you talk to me a little bit about what you mean by that so when it comes to mental health and it comes to working with anybody doesn’t matter what we’re dealing with whether it’s neurodevelopmental disabilities autism ADHD or we’re talking about mental health anxiety depression what happens is we want to make sure that our physiology and our neurology working together right so the neurology side which which is kind of the neuro feedback side that I do is comprised of the brain and the spinal cord so the brain is kind of the organizer right but our physiology is our Cardiology our breathing all the sensations the sensory input everything that we have and that is so important because it’s our first kind of the first tangible I’d say kind of our anchor of what’s happening with our feelings and what’s going on right and so when people experience something for a long time psychology we thought everything was experienced with our thoughts first but now we actually know that we experience a sensation first and then a feeling and then we put a a a thought to it right and so that’s what I really work on is helping people understand how do I self-regulate how do I self manage what’s happening in my physiology so that my neurology and my physiology can work together I love love that too and um we had a therapist on a couple weeks ago mine Frey who defined trauma as the disconnection yep one from the other it is yeah and Ruth lanus she does a lot of work in Canada and um one of the some of the work that she’s doing is speaking to that disconnection as a result of what’s going on in the parietal and there is this part of the brain and I’m going to butcher what it’s called so I’m like I’m going to go there but it’s teeny teeny tiny little part right in that sub part and for people with trauma it’s often times it doesn’t work and so what’s happening physiologically doesn’t connect with Neurology what’s going on and so we have this network is a default mode Network that kicks in when we’re in kind of comp State and it’s kind of our daydreaming our chilled Zone but when we are experiencing trauma that actually turns into hypervigilance it’s a preparation for what’s going to happen so that’s why we have to work at regulating that internal system and often times incorporating some of the neuro feedback is where medication can come in for certain people right and working and kind of reintegrating the connection for the brain to process that the body is saying you’re safe and feeling that safety not just knowing it CU we can know everything right right there but but how do you feel it and so for my clients I had one in particular a long time ago we’re working together and she’s like I’m doing all the breath work and got heart math link and I’m doing everything I feel nothing I don’t understand what you’re talking about and we had done EMDR we had done all kinds of stuff and I thought okay we’re going to try this so let’s start doing some of the neuro so we did some pride all we worked on some Alpha training for her and she sat in the chair and she goes I get it this is it this is what it feels like this is why you kept telling me to breathe and she integrated and it we know she called it her noodle mode I love that she and she did she completely just phys you just watched her and it was a wonderful thing she didn’t collapse but she just relaxed settled yes oh my goodness and so that’s how the two work together so if if and that’s why working across all these different areas is so critical right because we just don’t know why someone is stuck in one particular spot and even with the trauma world we can move stuff Psych logically we can move and reconceptualize and understand things but we also have to not forget that our body holds a lot of stuff too yeah kind of like that old saying of like we need to attend to the roots instead of the tree branches right this needs to be where it started where it starts in that do you believe or is it is it your research belief that people are born with this connection and then we lose it environmentally or we’re boring with disconnection kind well I see it as I think we are born with the ability to connect yeah and I think the environment either provides opportunities to connect and to reinforce that process and so that goes back into all the attachment work right so if you have whether it’s your mom or your dad or a grandparent or somebody that is able to provide that unconditional Attunement to you that’s when you start to develop this internal self-regulatory process right other things you could have the most attentive wonderful parents but if you have ever had a ky baby my oldest was KY sorry he was call hard yeah it was super hard from 4: to 900 p.m. he screamed at the top of his lungs and it didn’t matter what we did Tony Bennett kind of helped Lee Armstrong helped a little that was about it for sure and so what happens though from a neurological central nervous system is it doesn’t you know those processes don’t kind of form and so you have to work on those things very deliberately to help Shore up what was Miss during that time does that make sense yeah know it makes total sense yeah because that’s how babies learn to self-regulate as they look at their parent and they kind of go okay this is what this means and then they learn to soothe and the rocking and all of those things yeah that’s very very interesting how that works and I love what you said there too because you said that we’re born into this world with this really innate ability to connect and we just got it’s almost like we’re born out and we have the the extension cord coming off our body and we’re like just plug Us in mom plug Us in dad right yeah yeah it’s it’s really really cool opportunity because I think or at least in my experience you know the multitude of my uh professional career probably a decade of it has been spent more on the substance use side right we deal a lot with shame on that side certainly on the mental health side as well but substance use we’ve been told you’re bad that’s bad right and move forward and so the disconnection there we have folks that come in and I was one of them who came into treatment and I remember they said group therapy yeah I said group therapy my name is Chris Burns I I hate people and they’re like you hate people and I was like yeah I’ve just actually never been really treated well by those things yeah and so yeah I’m going to have my head down I’m not checking in in group I don’t want to have anything to do with people and then I sit here today with you and I’m like oh my goodness my life is built around authentic connection and the opportunity to do just the same so I love that you have the opportunity in your work too to kind of combat and counterbalance that shame yeah um because it’s just not the truth no we’re all born to connect and and it’s just what we’re taught and how our neurology and and Physiology work together to help make that a wonderful experience or not wonderful experience right so I know for the clients I’ve worked with the substance abuse some of them had a lot of sensory stuff going on prior to even using substances as little kids so touch and contact was uncomfortable Y and that is what a l me BL you do when the baby cry is you pick up the baby right and snuggle but if that’s uncomfortable for you the way that your brain is processing that then you’re not going to like it and it’s going to become aversive and that can create the disconnect but that’s no one’s fault yeah it’s just understanding how do we how do we go about communicating our needs how do we go about understanding and then can we make some adjustments neurologically physiologically to allow us to attune and connect the way we need to but that’s individualized right there’s no right or wrong way it’s just what you need and having a partner in people around you that get it and that understand and can support inv validate yeah you you make me think of that and I brought it up on the show before but there’s a book um called what happened to you and in that book I’ll just briefly say Oprah brings on the show essentially like the great parents right and um this 12 or 13-year-old had voted her mom on there and she essentially she’s on the show she said why’ you vote your mom on the show she’s the greatest Mom ever she’s like tell us your greatest memory right and in the book she says oh it’s Cheerios and everybody’s like what this is the Oprah show you know you bring you all the way from New Jersey tell you about Cheerios right she said it’s simple I was and I’ll butcher it a little bit she is four to six years old she hears a creek someone opened a door she goes downstairs mom’s in the kitchen eating Cheerios it’s 1:00 a.m. right she’s like Mom what are you doing she said oh honey you don’t know but occasionally you know I get a little anxious or I can’t sleep I’ll come down maybe it’s once a month and I’ll just have bullet Cheerios and I’ll go back to sleep it’s just something I do she said mom you know Cheerios are my favorite you have to wake me up if you’re ever going to have Cheerios oh cool and so she goes and she says sitting there with my mom what 5 to 10 times in my entire development right meaningful moments that matter matter the most exactly right yeah and it’s feeling seen feeling heard and being present with each other that’s the attachment that’s the Attunement piece Steve fores does a lot of work the poly Bagel Theory and the importance of social connections and communication is acting as a buffer that keeps us from going into kind of a hyper hypo hyper or hypo aroused state where we either are really really anxious and distressed or we’re really really kind of depressed and sad because either way physiologically we’re being impacted right because your body can only sustain for so long and we get depleted of all the r good neurotransmitters and things but that social connection and the attachment is a buffer for either one so when you learn to embrace people you’re pulling in so much more than just a wonderful hug that just feels good you’re actually healing your body yeah right that’s a really cool way to conceptualize it yeah yeah and it’s just it’s like this wholeness and fullness of life that you know people that struggle with mental health or substances might be available to them as well yeah you know it’s really really Co yeah I I was talking to you about before the show and I’m really really passionate about this I’m I’m passionate about what the 12 steps has been able to do in our community certainly since 1935 clear through 2023 um you know anywhere you go you can catch him eting it’s awesome what I love about that more than anything and I think the 12-step program is more about this than anything they don’t talk but it’s connection and in 1935 we just called it different things but it felt good to go to a place and be seen valued and heard but as we talked about before the show I really struggled or I thought I wasn’t struggling an alcoholic synonymous from a mental health perspective I’m picking up chip after chip I’m not drinking anymore I’m not doing any of the bad things um but it wasn’t until I got some mental health treatment and some trauma-informed care that I started to see that I was capable and maybe worthy of thriving in this world instead of surviving and I had surrounded myself with people in 12-step programs for a decade who found it necess necessary to survive and shout out to them they’re some of the greatest survival experts on planet Earth and and again it wasn’t until 2019 that I started to see this a bit different but how do we get the message how do how do you reinform the message to your clients uh both individually and oftentimes generationally right that there is this opportunity for you to experience this clearing that affords and informs a quality of life that maybe you never thought you could have right and I think that’s a a big piece and that’s a question that I continuously work through with everybody because they don’t you don’t know what you don’t know exists right and so when you’re talking to people about how good it feels when you’re integrated and you’re in this place of coherence and how it affords you Clarity in thinking and it affords you an opportunity to better understand what’s happening with yourself so that you’re not blaming yourself or attacking yourself and those NE negative voices don’t Creek of me but you kind of go oh that’s what happened and that’s my body doing this and so this means I do this and I’m good to go right how refreshing that is it’s it they kind of look at you like what and you almost have to say okay trust me yeah we’re going to walk okay trust me we’re going to do this thing and that’s where I use a lot of the peripheral bio feedback so actually teaching people to use the breath and understanding the relationship between the breath and the heart and the Heart is really at the center the heart actually speaks more to the brain than the brain does to the heart H that’s really interesting so when the heart is beating in this beautiful nice rhythmic pattern right the right amdal imitates exactly what the heart’s doing within milliseconds so it’s this beautiful nice rhm and your brain says Hey life is solid we’re good that’s when we’re stressed and it’s just going really fast we’re not okay we’re not okay the brain instantly says something’s wrong hypervigilant kicks in so if you can learn to discriminate because back in the day right the amydala served its function right it kept us alive the saber tooth didn’t eat us exactly right it didn’t evolve yeah H it worked well right it did and it still does but we no longer have that saber-tooth talking to us and you know attacking us right so sometimes the threats are not obvious they’re emotional they’re verbal they’re behavioral they’re ver you know non-verbal behaviors can be kind of threatening right um words and it senses off right and so once you’re aware of like o that word safe does that thing to my heart can you not tell me that I to feel safe or because that I don’t feel that it actually makes me more anxious but that comes from understanding the physiological impact and then saying absolutely we can make that adjustment and now I can return my breathing back into a different space and then we can investigate and talk about why that’s happening without the intensity being there yeah that makes so much sense and speaks really to my recovery as well CU for years in my recovery I I never understood why the sound of a diesel engine just made me mad the smell of diesel gasoline just made me mad construction I would see construction I would just right well I had a disconnected relationship with my father who drove a truck who was in construction and is you know pulling into the driveway I would hear it I’d be like oh and I never knew I was just like I just don’t like constru I don’t like those people right and it was so far from the truth um and I had the opportunity in the pandemic to do this really cool thing there was this construction project that was going by my house and I had just started SE therapy okay sematic work so I keep working it through I go by the construction project and they’re on the outside of the project because they have to because of the co regulations and I’m thinking when I’m run I’m like screw these people here we go I’m mad you know and then 3 months later I’m walking by I’m like I’m running you know they’re out early too right just like me doing the hard thing right I’m not so bad and then then 90 more days of sem SE work I’m running by I’m like happy Tuesday everybody’s got their arm out they’re like Chris great to see you and I’m like that’s the healing but I would have lived my whole life just thinking hey I’m just not a fan of that I don’t like that you know I don’t like people but there’s this opportunity to heal the nervous system so it doesn’t trigger in the same way and I can be present where wherever you’re at exactly and these are just people showing up to their job working hard just like I do you know but it’s these associations from a sensoring base that started and Trigger that whole piece right and when we feel vulnerable anger is a lovely defense mechanism is it not right I I mean it happens to me all the time right if I feel threatened and I’m not really present as to what’s happening I might get angry or defensive because because I need to keep myself safe so it serves a function it’s just being able to kind of say wait a second M am I really under attack am I really under threat or is this something that I maybe need to work on yeah yeah yeah my wife and I have that now we have like these little code words and stuff cuz I’m like obviously you’re triggered obviously I’m triggered you know we can’t be like are you triggered right now you know so we have this awareness and we we do the therapy together which is really really nice yeah um to do that but to your point it’s like I will take sadness all day long if when I get to experience happiness you know yeah I get a little bit of SC but I get to be there for that right you know and I get to walk through that and sadness isn’t such a bad emotion sometimes and it’s actually appropriate it is and it it actually helps us create the need for connection so it takes us all the way back even like stress everybody talks about no stress stress is bad we need to combat stress it’s like well you need a little because stress actually produces oxytocin which moves us towards K action and moves towards people and then it creates that sense of feeling heard validated and attuned and it helps our whole nervous system begin to calm but if people are a threat then you don’t go towards that and you internalize and isolate right yeah that’s cool yeah I was actually just thinking on my way over here I was waiting cuz I just got an aura ring and I have to wear I have to wear it for 5 days before it starts dialing my stress and I was thinking the whole time like I get this stress down I’m going to die of cancer you know talking about where the Joe so it’s interesting you say that there and I can speak very clearly to that in like my personal recovery and others is like a little bit of stress actually kind of pick your head up a little bit right it’s moved you to change and then it’s learning to re-regulate the physiological so really that’s it’s The Chronic stages of whatever it is you’re going through that takes a toll on your neurology and your biology that’s what makes it unhealthy right and it’s recognizing there are so many wonderful things you can do to actually make make those adjustments and what everyone needs is different not everybody needs neuro feedback I really do make everyone learn to breathe cuz you kind of all need to learn how to do that matters yeah I started nose breathing in the last year when I run and when I sleep yep and the diaphragm pulling all that so you use all four chambers of the lungs we’re really pulling in that good oxygenation the balance and the pH levels and the blood and so that our oxygen can get released to all the muscles and our brain and everything I walked around um you know hyperventilating my whole life and not realizing that’s what I did I was a big chest breather you know yeah and so all my breathing was or I would hold my breath for I don’t know how I survived really don’t but when I started doing all this breath work CU everything I I do with clients I’ve done for myself right love that and so I’ve been through the gamut of all of it but I was learning kind of to reshape my breathing and I don’t breathe when I type on a computer when I cook and when I read my goodness those are long bouts of sustainable action and these like short little like sad breaths and I’m like I still wonder if it’s so tired so as I started working on the diaphragmatic breathing and just created more awareness I started to kind of go oh my gosh I had energy at the end of my day I don’t feel quite so exhausted when I walk in the door and the kids are coming and they’re asking me tons of questions cuz I haven’t been depriving myself of oxygen say for8 hours yeah so all even that subtle change just Improvement in energy is huge so if people learn that good diaphragmatic full slow and steady breath it really makes a huge shift do you when Peaks is really looking forward to kind of working with great doctors like you in the community because I don’t think that clients will get swallowed up through you in the medical model they’ll be told kind of the truth and have this opportunity to move forward but when you bring people in whether it’s out of an inpatient setting or just simply an outpatient uh situation do you start with breath yep okay yep okay and it’ll depend like you know sometimes people need to talk and we need to spend a bit of time processing but once we kind of move through that process it always starts with a breath because in between appointments especially with trauma work I will not start trauma work until I’m very confident because I work with more complex trauma right that the person feels confident in themselves self-regulating can’t do that without breathing and I wonder because I’ve been to you know four treatment programs and not a single one contracted for that I can tell you that much and so it’s really cool if you ever come to my office I’ll show you all the stuff but you can see when you know a client will because I you you’re on kind of you have a respiration belt okay and then you’re doing your breath work and I have a BB bvp sensor on your finger and what’s happening is so I’m tracking your your heart and I’m tracking your breath and so what I’ll have people do once we practice the resourcing skills and all that kind of stuff is they start to kind of recognize when they’re getting in Phase so you know I had one kiddo that came in and she was able to elicit trauma just mentally with what had happened for her so she came in she was just doing her diaphragmatic breath right so it was nice beautiful gorgeous Rhythm she felt she was like I am I’m noodle in my noodle Zone and then she went to level four and boy you just saw that cardio I mean it just I mean just completely shot up and then I said okay I’m going to have you start engaging with your breath again but I need you to pull in that Comfort emotion that you’re feeling and boy she pulled that in and it looked better with the Comfort emotion than it did in the beginning when she was just breathing and it took her probably 10 seconds to regulate her physiology and then I said okay are you ready she’s like okay went to a level 9 so s’s level 9 trauma State boy you could just see everything just tears face neck everything was red and then we held it for 3 minutes and then we moved ourselves right out of it just using the breath and then the emotions she needed to pull in so we use the mindfulness component we use the meditative component and the breath and boy she was at and within probably 3 and 1 half minutes she was at a level one again she felt safe she felt good she walked out of the office she didn’t have any issues in between appointments so that’s what I’m looking for yeah right real regulation real regulation because otherwise then the emotion kicks in and sure I can contain it and I might be able to set it aside but if I don’t physiologically also learn then it creeps back in and sometimes of the wrong time yeah right that is wonderful and I i’ imagine too cuz you know I’ve been in the treatment field for 15 years years and often times have been a part of family programs that are much different than that and really draw in intensity first and don’t talk about breath and so I think it’s it’s oftentimes synonymous with our field and Peaks is responsible for it I mean 2019 we’d have families come in we do this model we realized that it really wasn’t efficacious certainly for safety settling or client care in general but how do we how do we combat that in a way is like because a lot of traumatized individuals I’ll speak for myself I remember going into my therapist and just being like just crank it up let’s Crank It Up I’m going to go to the worst darkest spot I’ve ever been and we’re going to have a session around this and then sometimes in group therapy and past programs that I’ve been in whether it’s grief weak or a trauma intensive we don’t contract for safety we come in and we just tell all and kind of probably re exacerbate the trauma yeah you R traumatize the nervous system cuz I’m not safe and then I get out and I’m like I don’t know why I’m not settled right right right and so I think getting this message out there is is so important um for people to see that there’s this other side we actually don’t have to get into this real big intense thing right right and what that might mean for our nervous systems in general right and pulling the families in and that’s tricky mhm yeah for sure because know the child is a problem my husband’s a problem my wife is a problem if you could just fix them I wouldn’t have any more problems like well let’s go back and inevitably it comes down to the communication so we’re communicating at finances always comes up right yeah so communicating about finances and everyone goes into defense mode and it’s like time out what is your body doing where is your body at where’s your heart rhythm at where did your mind go and it’s never in the present never it’s always waiting to I know she’s going to say he’s going to say and now no one’s listened to a word anyone is said just waiting for my turn yeah so it’s like when you know you’re going to have this conversation we first need to regulate you got to get into that coherent State get into the conversation when either one is out of coherence what I call it coherence right that c state right the coherence State then you need to take a break regulate and then come back and and for after a while coupl like I’m so tired of taking breaks we just stop and kind of breathe together and kind of get back in but that’s the point right cuz I mean you know eventually you don’t want to have to like take a time out and do your breath work then come back here hold this hold the hold thing yeah all right regulated what we got I’m going to breathe now okay I’m good you want it to be happening as you’re talking but there’s trust that starts to form because now you can see that your partner actually is connecting with you and they’re seeing that you’re distressed right and they care enough to say let’s take them INE now I feel sane exactly now I feel safe yeah right yeah yeah that’s really really cool I love that do you find or or should I say when you meet with individuals and you’re a family therapist you know that there’s going to be this family involvement how do you get what is the best way or the way that you see best to get families involved in this process to not not shame on them but we can be a part of this authentic process that really affords us healing and connection but we have to be in the middle of it it’s been one of the most contentious conversations I’ve had in my career and I’m still trying to figure out ways to have that conversation better yeah you know and I I think for the most part um fortunately the families that I have worked with I have had pretty good success in pulling both parents in um sometimes if one works quite a bit or they’re gone or they’re deployed it gets tricky right but it it it is one of those things where it’s like we can do all these things for your husband your wife your child whomever it is however the system that they go back to needs to be able to support it and so at the onset it’s like this is a whole whole family situation and everybody needs to understand the premise of it I’ve had instances where I’ve had a parent refuse right not doing it yeah and it’s like that’s okay sure and it and so what I do is I work with the client to say don’t internalize it they’re on their path and their journey and you have to just allow them to be where they’re at it’s not about you but you can continue on your path and your journey I love that and and allow and then they have the other parent thank God I’ve always had one I’ve always had one um that has been able to connect and to say I’ll walk this with you yeah and so then it’s a matter of teaching the the kid and the parent or the spouses to breathe together to work together and to learn how to see each other and where the Attunement and the attachment breaks down um but a lot of times it starts with the individual first cuz I have to be able to accept you right and then why work individually with the other person cuz sometimes you come in and you don’t even realize you have a problem cuz you weren’t using substances sure right fine yeah you weren’t doing the bad thing so everything was fine resume look good right you know how that is right yeah oh wait a second yeah for sure that was my story of 2016 that’s the myth of normal yes right it is it’s the myth of normal it is and health MH what is healthy right yep yeah and having those conversations and and what does good health look like for mental health what does nutrients look like what does great connection look like physiologically yeah cuz the nutrient part is huge if I do not eat well I would not feel well I know if I do not feel well I am not going to think I’m not going to be present and I’m just going to be aate and everyone can pretty much relate to that 100% I you got a cold or the flu for now you’re just not there right but food plays such a huge role in nutrients and vitamins and supplements and exercise all of that is is mental health and wellness and we all should check in with our mental health yeah you know it’s not just if you’re having a problem but let’s let’s get it early yeah if I could teach little ones this whole process in schools it’s like learning languages they’re like oh now I speak Spanish yeah you know it’s really cool and my kids they’ve been doing the dualingo for the Portuguese cuz they’re in Brazilian jiu-jitsu so they want to be able to you know talk to professor and things like that that’s cool yeah it is it’s a whole another language y it really is and when families make a decision and I’ve watched this with individuals and family systems both and when they’re not willing and when they’re willing I mean I’ve gone into group and say hey I so your family was on the uh family program running through their curriculum and the I should tell families the way that your loved one settles when they hear that information and often times maybe 50% of the time they they are moved to tears cuz they’re like they’re getting on and doing this work I thought it was me oh my gosh and and then they go to thrive y I mean they just feel an ounce of support and skin in the game right and uh there was a TED Talk done by one of my favorite humans Lisa Smith and I was talking to you about before the show where she dubbed the phrase parallel recovery where the individual is going to do their work and the family gets to do their work and I’m sure you’ve seen just amazing results yep um oh gosh just I mean when you know you’ve got someone there then you’re not the problem anymore because so much that like the guilt and the shame is it’s my fault if I could just whatever it is right stop drinking stop using whatever it is then everybody would be fine but realizing actually everybody’s working together to get healthy so that we can all move to a different level and it wasn’t just you you just needed more help right right yeah I love that it’s like we we heal together yeah you know it’s the one thing in recovery over 15 years and I don’t know a lot um but I think I know one thing and that is we have have to do this together Y and whatever together looks like you know I used to say well you know Gabor Monte says connect family community and culture is the essence I was like what if you don’t have family he like Well Community community and culture right and there is an opportunity there to be safe to settle um and have this opportunity in our recovery today and in our lives from a mental health perspective to just really really challenge the status quo of survival and really anchor into this where we sit today um and that’s interesting too that you bring up because not everybody’s family especially if our family is stuck in a cycle of trauma and substance abuse and all kinds of stuff and they’re not in a place where they want to get out or feel the need that they need to change sometimes you can’t you can’t have that type of relationship because it’s just not available yeah right but you can have a different type of family with people who do share and can connect and that Attunement doesn’t have to just be with our family of origin right it can be with all those people that are supportive and caring and hopefully family sees those changes and maybe that motivates and propels them to change right yeah and it almost becomes like a dare I say an addicting thing because it’s like oh my gosh I just want to be in community I want to be in deep conversation I want to be present with you I want to go have a coffee and just talk about life and just be there and before it was like this no no I can’t be anywhere you know it just it really is and I really appreciate you coming on the show today it’s just been am amazing having your Insight and just the way that you conceptualize recovery mental health the neuro feedback stuff I can’t wait to get it going with the team I want to have you down at the fa facility I talked to our CEO um as well as the other owners in our meeting last Friday looking forward to bringing you down there and hooking people up including myself because that’s one thing that I have not engaged in my recovery and I’ve kind of been boing at it breath work just breath work oh you’re going to I’ve done breath work sessions I’ve done a couple whim Hoffs things of that really enjoyed it and I’m like I got to make that a part of my life and I just have it so I might come down to your office first individually we’ll play around with all this stuff absolutely be aot of fun to hook you up to all the different things you can see how it all integrates and works together awesome yeah thank you so much for having me absolutely it’s been phenomenal thank you so much Dr hokom and thank you all we’ll see you next time peace thank