Episode 152

But the thing is is that you cannot make somebody want to get treatment and want to get better. It has to come from the person. The shame has this ability to cause decision making that people otherwise wouldn’t make. You know, you can’t change what’s what’s happened in the past, but you can absolutely take charge of what happens in the future. I love that.
Hey everybody and welcome to another amazing, exciting, and of course enthusiastic episode of Finding Peaks. Yours truly, founder, chief executive officer here at Peaks Recovery Centers. So grateful to be back after a six-w weekek hiatus. I hope everybody enjoys the new amenities here. We got new brown wood floors. The sound is coming off it. Something fierce today. But uh even bigger than that, I’m so grateful to be joined by a friend and colleague, our director of nursing, Jennifer Williams. Welcome to the spot. Thank you. Absolutely. Grateful to have you on. Um Jen started with us, I want to say probably 3 months ago, August. August. And it was a real honor of mine to um be a part of that interview process, bring Jen on. She was certainly my most favorite candidate. and the work that she’s done since she’s been here um is very clear uh as to why I think she was a great candidate. She shows up early, stays late, shows up for the team, and does all things um a director would do in that nursing department. So, really grateful to have her on the team. I believe that she is connected with and embodies kind of our mission to save lives and certainly disrupt the industry through quality of care. And so, um you have BSN, right? I do. How long have you been a nurse? So I actually graduated in 2019. So it has not been that long. You know, you would kind of think that the progression would have been a little bit slower, but everybody takes their own path in nursing. Some people want to be bedside forever. Some people just kind of move into, you know, uh NP, CCRN, that kind of thing. But I just felt like I kind of had that leadership calling. So I only worked in the hospitals and outside of leadership for about three years. And then I started moving into leadership. So, um, yeah, not that long, but I think the progression was just kind of natural for me because I just enjoy helping people. I enjoy helping patients, but I also enjoy helping, you know, co-workers. So, it was just natural for me. So, was that passion, obviously, you graduated high school quite a bit before that. Uhhuh. How did you find that passion to help others? like was that something that you grew up with that you’ve always connected with or was there something that happened that you got into you got involved in nursing? Yeah, that’s a really good question. So I when I went to college the first time nursing wasn’t even on my radar. I went I got a sociology and society and justice. I wanted to go to law school and then I started working with lawyers and I said no I’m good. Yeah. Um, so it was it wasn’t until I was married actually and I it took us a long time to conceive. And so going to doctor’s appointment after doctor’s appointment and um you could really tell the difference between the nurses that were there to really help and the ones that were there to get a paycheck. And I thought, you know, I’d really like to be able to help people and do this kind of thing. So I thought about it and I was I did, you know, have kids and I thought, “Oh, I’m too old. I’ve got kids. it’s going to be too hard to go to nursing school. So, I just kept putting it off and putting it off and putting it off. Um, and then finally, I was just what am I waiting for, you know? I I Yeah, I just I thought that I really needed to to just pursue that even though I felt like I was too old. So, I did. And it was really hard if I’m being honest. Yeah, it seems like it. But to your point, it’s uh my mom was an RN and my favorite people whenever I go to the hospital or I go to my primary care doc or whatever it is, my favorite people to connect with professionally or certainly as um a client, patient or guest is a great nurse, right? And those those nurses that are really really great, you remember them. They kind of stick with you. They’re so caring. Their bedside manner is phenomenal. Um, and so I really really love phenomenal nurses and I think they’re really I’ve always described them as like the glue that holds everything together. Yeah. Oh, I agree with that. It’s, you know, because you have the doctors, those are, you know, they’re important. The providers are super important and and the, you know, the photamists and the CNAs and the respirator, everybody is important, but it is kind of the the nurse that’s kind of at the center of that, right? It’s kind of making sure they’re kind of the nucleus, I guess you would say, just to make sure that it all fits together and it runs well. It’s definitely true. What is it about leadership in nursing that drew you in that direction as opposed to um potentially just working as an RN? Um I just think that I have I think I have ability to really connect with people and it doesn’t really matter who they are. I think I can understand them and I can be compassionate and empathetic with them. So, and I think that that’s what really makes a good leader is somebody that isn’t standing above someone and looking down and saying, “Do this, do that.” It’s somebody that’s that’s in there, right? And they can recognize, you know, maybe this person’s having a hard day or maybe this person’s going through some struggles and it’s the ability to step back from it, you know, maybe being frustrated, right? They didn’t show up to work or whatever and really being able to step back and say, “Well, they probably have something going on.” you really need to have that that extra piece, that empathetic piece. Um, and I think that I I think I’m pretty good at that. So, I just um and people kind of naturally come to me if they have problems and that could be co-workers or just, you know, people in my life um for advice and because I think that I can I I think I can step back and I can really um think and listen and you know, not listen to respond, right? But, you know, I’m listening and I really actually want to have um, you know, constructive things to say rather than emotional. So, I think I do I do a good job with that. So, it just comes naturally, I think. Yeah, I think you do phenomenal with it actually. And that willingness to kind of get your hands dirty and sit by side by side um, with your employees, with your team, I think is extraordinary. Actually, I just hired our billing director, and that was one of the things that really stuck out in the interview was this willingness and this ability to get down, sit side by side with people, and do the work. Do the work alongside their team members. And it’s interesting, too, because you came from another treatment program. Um, and like five nurses followed you. Yeah. We’re like, you know, at least two full-time, three part-time. But that’s that speaks to me. The same thing happened with the billing director. I didn’t hire a billing specialist cuz she’s like, I got two. M I already know. I’ve worked with them for 5 years. Um what is it about that connectivity within your team that creates the best opportunity for patient care? Why is it so important to have a cohesive, not just a medical team, but specifically a nursing team? They probably have more touch points than anybody else on the medical team. Why is it so important to have a good culture and synergy within that department? Culture is everything in nursing. Um I mean you can just you can feel the culture. So, I think that at Peaks, for example, you know, anybody that walks in, I think that they can feel the culture. It doesn’t matter where you are, um, on the team, but they can feel it. And it’s especially important in nursing. I mean, it’s it’s hard. It’s 12 hours, um, you know, 3 to four days a week. It’s overnight. It’s 24 hours a day. So, you really have to have that cohesiveness. You have to be able to pass on information. You have to be able to, um, communicate effectively. You have to be able to And you have to be happy. Yeah. You know, you can’t I guess you could, but as a nurse, you have to have some passion for what you’re doing and you have to enjoy showing up to work because if you don’t, then you’re just robotic. Anybody can pass out medications and anybody can read a MAR. Um, you know, anybody can do that, but you have to have the passion behind it. And that’s just created by the whole team. It’s not me, it’s not one nurse, it’s everybody. Um, and that speaks to what I was saying earlier, you know, just you have to be able to really understand the people that you’re working with. You have to be able to understand them. You have to be able to listen to them and you have to be able to care. If you don’t care, you know, you’re not going to have people that are going to show up for you. It’s just not going to happen. They’re just, you know, you bring up a really good point. It’s almost like it should be like a prerequisite when you’re going through the nursing school to be like, “What’s your lived experience? Why are you here? Are you passionate? Because this job, if you’re not passionate, I would imagine can be extraordinarily difficult. Oh, yeah. The passion has to be there. And I don’t think anybody gets into nursing and they think, I don’t really like helping people, but just want to make a couple bucks. I just, you know, just want to make some money because nursing is hard. It doesn’t matter what setting you’re in. It’s hard. Not always, but it’s hard. So, you really have to have that passion. If you don’t, you’ll burn out. Yeah. You just will. You know, you’re just going to you’re going to show up. And it it happens. It happens a lot. Um, so you have to have that passion. Yeah. Otherwise, you’re just not going to last. Why would you say that? Maybe it’s in behavioral health, but maybe it’s just in the field in general. But why is there so much nursing burnout? Similar to like counseling and primary therapy and things of that nature. Yeah. Well, I think that it’s a combination of it’s long hours, it’s long days, sometimes it’s overnights. The overnights will will really get to you. Um, but I think that it’s also it’s just it’s emotionally. So, it can be physically hard, it’s emotionally hard, it can just be taxing on your, you know, just your body and your nervous system at all times. So, if you just continue that year after year after year, um, without having that underlying passion and that underlying happiness, um, then you’re going to burn out a lot faster. Yeah. Yeah. No, that makes a lot of sense. You know, when when people are going to counseling schools, as I started my um education with counseling, a lot of there’s a lot of talk and a lot of verbiage, not necessarily in textbooks, but there’s a lot of talk about self-care. Oh, yeah. About taking great care of myself so that I can show up and kind of empty the tank for others. Maybe you could chat with the viewers a little bit about what is that is it just as important for nursing? What could that self-care look like? And how does it make a better professional? Yeah. I So, I’m not going to lie. I’m really bad at self-care. So, I feel a little bit hypocritical saying I feel like making sourdough is self-care. It is. It is. I’m trying. And gardening. Yeah. There you go. Um it’s I mean it’s anything that you can do to step away. It’s really really important to be able to not be connected when you’re not at work. And I really encourage the nurses that I work with, hey, if you’re not here, don’t be here. Yeah. Go go go home. do whatever it is that you like to do. Go hang out with your family. Go walk your dog. Go pet your cats. Um, you know, get a massage. Get your toes done. Um, whatever it is that that you enjoy doing. It’s super important. But nurses in general are really bad at taking care of themselves. Yeah. It’s just it’s just the way that you are because that’s what you came into the profession for is to help other people. So, you’re not you’re not at the like the forefront of the people that you want to take care of even when you’re not at work. Yeah. Yeah. Because then you, you know, you may have kids or a husband or a wife or or whomever and you’re you’re catering to them because that’s just the nature of nurses most of the time. That makes sense. So I would imagine that after you’ve said that that maybe codependency becomes a an issue within the nursing profession as well as it does in other clinical jobs. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That makes a lot of sense. It’s They probably don’t talk about it in nursing school though, huh? No. Or in residency for doctors, you know, when you’re going through all of that kind of stuff. But it would make sense to me that and self-care can come in a million different varieties. Selfcare could literally be just turning off your chats and sitting on the couch and quiet. Yes. You know, something like that. I was talking to one of the nurses the other day and she goes she goes, “Yeah, I went home and I sat in my bed with my dog and I ate a bag of of gummy bears.” And I was like, “That’s perfect. I love that. Sounds so good.” That’s one of those things where like there’s been seasons of my life where like I leave work in my car like a magnet just pulls into 7-Eleven and my head like a magnet goes right over to the ice cream thing and grabs a pint of Ben & Jerry’s. There you go. And I’m like for a while there and I know Ben and Jerry’s especially the whole pint isn’t good for you. Yeah. But there was these moments in these seasons where that was the best self-care I could do. And certainly I want to grow up and out of that and I have. But I I just I love kind of um broadening that self-care thing because a lot of people will look and say, “Well, I don’t want to wake up at 4:00 and I don’t want to go running.” None of that. Yeah. Just take great care of yourself. And that’s about as of an individualized process as it comes. Oh, for sure. You know, fishing, baking, gardening, all that stuff. Reading, you know, walking, running, you know, you live in the beautiful state of Colorado, so there’s so much to do. Yep. Have you gotten out and seen these aspens? No. Oh, I know. Oh, you just got to drive to Twin Lakes this weekend. Okay. I mean, it’s I was just there last weekend. There is a tree. A little off topic. There is a tree on your way to Twin Lakes and it’s it’s on the Arkansas River. Mhm. And it’s right on the right hand side. There’s a little pulloff and it is the brightest yellow fall tree I’ve ever seen in my life. It looks like it’s on fire. Wow. I would go back just to see that tree. Oh, wow. It’s absolutely cool. And I love fall. It matters too because it’s change of the seasons. Right. Right. And the only thing constant is change. And certainly with what we do as a profession day in and day out, nothing’s the same. Yeah. And I really really love that about our field. What was it about or maybe it wasn’t about anything, but what brought you into behavioral health? Uh, well, to be honest, when I first got into it, it I kind of stumbled upon it and I remember looking at the job description and I thought I’ve never really considered doing behavioral health or, you know, substance abuse. I’ve never considered that. But when I thought about it, I thought I think that I would be I think that would be perfect for me. I don’t feel like this was an accident that I stumbled you know across this this job because um you know I have absolutely had um I’ve been impacted in my life from substance substance abuse. So, um, I just said, “Why not? Let’s try it.” Right? That’s kind of what you do when in life, right? Let’s let’s try it. And I did. And I thought, “Yeah, this is this is definitely something that that I I think that is a passion of mine.” And I didn’t even know it would be. I thought that, you know, because of my experience getting into nursing in general that I would be more interested in like fertility and babies and children, but that’s not the case. So, was um your previous employer, was that your first job in behavior health? It was. Okay. Yep. Cool. And you chatted a little bit about it and I I know your story a little bit, but what was the lived experience and how has it impacted you as a professional? Oh, as far as the the substance Yeah. Maybe you maybe you grew up with substance use. I know your uh former husband um struggled with substance use and mental health issues and things of that nature. Um, yeah. What was that lived experience if you don’t mind talking about it? No, I don’t. Um, well, I would say so, uh, you know, I got married when I was pretty young, 24, and all is well. You want to do all the things, you know, get married, have kids, and and you know, we struggled with that a little bit, but we did. And, um, you know, my my ex, he he slowly transitioned from kind of a casual, you know, social drinker and, you know, we were young and going out and doing the things. Uh but it transitioned into more than that and I started to notice changes. So you know kind of shady behaviors, things going on and and you know I would start to notice um he was very functioning. So there was that. It was very hard. It was really hard to identify. Um but I just started noticing little things and you know I would kind of catch him like why are you drinking right now? Or, you know, there would be times, for example, we would be leaving to go to our son’s football game on a Saturday, you know, and he’d forget something in the house and he would run back inside and I’ve I I would catch him like chugging alcohol and I would find empty water bottles and I started getting so suspicious like I’d smell them, right, because vodka is clear, you know? So, I’d start smelling every water bottle. Um, you know, I would start taking sips of his drinks just to see kind of what was in them. And it just really turned into um just a really a life that I was not excited about because I was always the bad guy. I was always searching. I was I mean I would search through his car. I would search through his pockets for whatever I could find because it’s just like am I going crazy? And you know what’s going on here? What what is what is wrong? Um so it was really hard. I mean and we dealt with that. I mean, it probably started way before I even really had it on my radar. Um, you know, because the kids were young and yeah. Um, so it was it I I just felt like I was going crazy because all I was ever doing was looking for the reason. So yeah, that was, you know, that was kind of the progression. It was years. It’s interesting you bring that up. That’s a lot of parents and spouses and um a lot of the relational components that you brought up is a lot a lot of what people bring up when they talk about the progression of alcoholism or the progression of mental health or the progression of substance use because I was the type of person who would drink and I’d have my drink in my hand with alcohol in it and my girlfriend at the time be like you’re drinking I’d be like absolutely not. Yeah. And she’s like what am I going crazy? Because it really starts to make you feel like not only you the bad person but like am I being scapegoed here? Yeah. You know. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, and I just I felt like I was the the one doing something wrong because I’m always sneaking around trying to find proof and I’m just going what what is happening? And it’s just, you know, one of the things that’s the most difficult for me is the fact that, you know, I think a lot of people there’s a stigma, right? You think, oh, it’s an alcoholic. It’s not a good person. It’s not they don’t have a job or they, you know, all of these things that may that may trigger in people’s minds about an alcoholic. And the hardest thing for me is that all of that was quite the opposite. He was a wonderful person, a really good dad, a good son, a good, you know, a good husband to the best of his ability, right? Um, so he was just a really good person. So that’s why sometimes, you know, I hesitate to say that I had those troubles with him because he he was such a good person and he just got lost. Yeah. Just totally lost. I really appreciate you mentioning that too because shame has this ability to cause decision making that people otherwise wouldn’t make um and a lesser degree of shame. And I think having some compassion and some grace for that and that’s why I always lean towards like alcoholic I called myself an alcoholic for six years of sobriety and I don’t do that anymore. I struggled with a mental health disorder of which I coped with alcohol in a season of my life where it was really really intense. But me today, I I just don’t subscribe to that alcoholic thing anymore. And I think that’s hopeful for our viewers and people that might potentially call Peaks Recovery home because our goal here is not just to save lives, but like help you heal, right? So you can go on and live a normal life, whatever that looks like in your recovery. So I really appreciate you saying that because a lot of the people that I know that I that we have the opportunity to meet on a daily basis, we meet them on their worst day. Yeah. And then if they finish the program, we get to hang out with them on one of their best days. Those are phenomenal humans. Yeah, they’re good people. They’re really good people. And you know, I think that’s the perspective that I always have because I see them and I see them as a person. They have families, they have kids, they have parents, they have jobs. Um, and you know, I think like what you said, I think that he really struggled with with, you know, some of the things from his past. Yeah. And he didn’t want to talk about it, didn’t want to deal with it. Um, or maybe he did. I’m not quite sure to be honest with you. And there’s those coping mechanisms, right? You can numb the pain. Yeah. Um and unfortunately, that’s that’s what he did, you know, to a very severe extent. So you um I don’t know if I’ve ever said this to you before, but I think Aborate said it, I’ve said it on the show, but since we’re throwing so much grace into this space, grace into the space. Um it’s hard to get enough of something that almost works. Yeah. Pretty sure Gabbor Mate said that. But when you look at Right. talk about somebody’s past and the inability to deal with it. You know, alcohol is a is a really great anxiety suppressant, right? And generally people start with one drink and if they haven’t dealt with the intensity in the past, it turns into two and before you know it, I’m in a space that I didn’t necessarily want to be, right? I just want to treat the anxiety, right? And it’s clear why I have anxiety, right? You know, so that can be really, really difficult to not just witness, but to be in a relational component with to have kids. Mhm. Um, were you guys uh separated? Uh, we did eventually separate. Okay. You guys separated? Yeah. So, eventually, um, so, you know, it it’s really interesting and I obviously know this now and I did not know it at the time, but I I told him this is going to tear apart our family because I can’t live like this with the kids and you. I can’t I can’t live like this. So, I really want you to to do what it is that you need to do to to get help. my parents um and his parents paid for him to go to an outpatient, you know, treatment center that he always found a reason that he couldn’t go to. Yeah. Um and I I just I I just said, you know, after all these failed attempts and and I’ll I’ll I’ll get better on my own. I’ll fix it on my own. Um which obviously didn’t happen. And you know, finally I just said, I can’t do this anymore. And to be honest with you, I thought that might work, right? I mean, him and I were together for over 17 years. Wow. That is not something that you want to throw away easily. But I just said, I I just can’t. So, maybe that will work. But the thing is is that you cannot make somebody want to get treatment and want to get better. It has to come from the person. Yeah. Because it’s just not going to work if somebody else wants you to do it. If you don’t have the desire and you aren’t at the place where you want to see something change in your life, it’s not going to happen. Yeah. I didn’t realize that at the time. Mhm. And to go back onto the shame thing, once we disconnect, I remember telling myself, I hate people. But that’s where my alcoholism and my anxiety and my depression had brought me to this space where I’m just like, leave me alone. And so a lot of times with that shame on our back, right, we have a separation in relationship. It it often times get worse because I’m telling myself a narrative that I don’t want that. I don’t need that and I’m not because the shame’s just so heavy. Yeah. And so often times they slip. Sometimes it’ll be a call to to courage, but other times it slipped kind of uh into more of a deficit there. Yeah. So, what ultimately ended up happening? So, we were we were separated and I had initiated the divorce process. Um, and it was really it was really scary. That’s one of the reasons also that kind of pushed me into finally getting my my nursing degree because I I knew that it was probably going to go down the path of me needing to support the boys on my own. Mh. So um so we were uh going through a divorce. Um I had you know been dating a somebody for a while and um I woke up uh in early morning I woke up. I had to take the kids to school and I had a text message from somebody that I didn’t know and they said, “Hey, um can you go check on him? I haven’t I haven’t heard from him in a couple of days.” He didn’t live he was in an apartment not too far from from me. So, I dropped the boys off and I went to his house. Um, but long story short, he was he had passed away. I bet that was extremely hard. Yeah. Yeah. And where does what does a mother do from that point? Two kids. I know a lot of our viewers, a lot of our guests that call Peaks home have had some of that experience as well, but how did you turn that corner, Jen? I mean, I will tell you that um the worst moment of my life was telling my kids. That was that was the worst moment. I don’t think there’s going to be a lot of worse moments than that. Um but, you know, I just had to focus on them, right? I just had to say, “Look, I have to be the mom. I have to be the dad. I have to be all the things.” And it was terrifying. It was It was absolutely terrifying. But I just said, you know, it’s happened, right? I can’t go back. I had a lot of guilt, to be honest with you. What did I do wrong? What was my part in all of this? How could I have done things differently? Um, but it’s just you got to pick yourself up by your bootstraps, as they used to say, and just, you know, you have to power forward. We weren’t divorced, so I had to to figure out all of the things. um you know all cuz he had a whole you know kind of his own property and life going on and so I had to figure all of that out you know um but I just you know of course I mean I cried myself to sleep I can’t tell you how many times um because just because you don’t want to be together with somebody doesn’t mean that you that you know you want them out of your life right um and obviously the kids’ lives so just move on and figure out how to move on and had a lot of um you know there’s been a lot days where it’s it’s really difficult, but I’m there for my boys. Yeah. That’s I think as a mother or a parent, right, it’s like, well, they they they have to be able to rely on me. So, that’s what I did. Wow. That’s super heroic. It’s very emotional. I have two boys. Yeah. And I and I um I see the way my boys look at me as their father. Yeah. And how difficult that conversation must have been for you. Yeah. Um, so shout out to you for having the courage to step up and do what you needed to do to inform or continue to inform a solid foundation for those boys. Yeah. I mean, it’s, you know, I’m not going to lie, it’s it was a really difficult conversation I had with myself like, how am I going to be the dad? How am I going to do the the boy things and um puberty and all these things that are going to come up someday? And um you know I I had hoped of course like obviously not at the time but I had hoped that I would I would eventually find somebody that that could kind of fill that role for them. Um and I did. So that’s that’s good. But it was a lot of dark moments with myself and just the type of person that I am. I just I spent a lot of time wondering, you know, what was my part in it? And I struggled with that a lot. Um, I still do to be honest with you, but you know, you can’t change what’s what’s happened in the past, but you can absolutely take charge of what happens in the future. I love that. There’s this You ever been to Alanon? I have. Have you? Yeah. So, there’s this saying in Alanon. I’ve only been to like two meetings my whole life. Yeah. But my wife was an Allen honor and um they have this saying in Alanon that says, “You didn’t cause it and you can’t fix it.” I remember when I heard that for the first time. I was blown away. Yeah. But I think it’s important especially in situations of grief and loss and things of that nature. You know, my old sponsor used to tell me because I would have sponses and they would go out and drink. They called me the sobriety reaper. They would all drink. Like for my first two years, everybody drank. It was not helpful to anybody. And he was he would always say to me, he would always say, “There’s a center of the universe or potentially there’s a god and it’s definitely not you, Chris Burns.” Yeah. you know, and so to release myself from that control and to know that everybody has decisions to make and things happen and often times I don’t have a lot of um connection with on with how those things turn out. Yeah. You know, but again, I can’t imagine having walked through I’ve walked through a certain amount of grief in my life. It’s just a it’s an interesting thing to process and then to process it alongside two boys that probably look like their dad um is probably even more difficult. Yeah. How have you taken that power and thank you so much for sharing that. I know those stories are hard to talk about, but how have you taken that experience? How has that informed the professional that shows up today and the way that you deal with guests that are struggling in a lot of ways with very similar issues? Oh, yeah. I mean, it it just it really enhances my ability to see them, to really see them. Um because like I had touched on earlier, I think that there’s the stigma um that goes along with, oh, they’re addicted to something or, you know, if that’s if that’s what they’re there for. Um there’s a stigma around that. And I think that if you can if you can talk to them and in a very genuine way, which is not hard to do, um and just really say, “Hey, I see you here.” And the thing that that that you’re doing right now is the hardest thing because it’s really easy to be at home with some with a substance in your hand or a drink in your hand. That’s easy. Being here is really hard. So, I think having that insight and saying, you know, I don’t know you, but I’m really proud of the fact that you chose to be here and that you want your life to be different and you’re making, you know, those decisions and those steps forward. Um, and I think that it really makes makes me it gives me the the ability to really see them, to see them as a person, not a guest, not a patient, not um, you know, somebody that has has, you know, that is struggling, it makes me really be able to see them. And I’ll share my story when it’s, you know, when it’s appropriate, but it’s also not about me. Yeah. Um, but if I feel like somebody could use it, you know, I’ve done that in the past and said, um, you know, like when younger people come in and and I see, um, you know, that they’re they’re really struggling and I say, you know, you’ve got this. You have you have a mom and a dad, I’m sure, that are so proud to see you here. Um, you know, you’re not much older than my son. Um, yeah. Right. So, I’m just really proud that especially the younger kids, but I’m just proud to see you here and to see you making those steps because it’s super hard. It is not an easy decision to make. Yeah. So, I love that, too. And you know firsthand like what type of courage it takes to make that decision, right? And you would think, you know, like I break my ankle, I go to the doctor, right? Everyone does. Yeah. Even if you don’t have insurance, I go to the ER, go to the doctor, right? Whatever reason with this mental health thing and this substance use thing. Yeah. I break myself, but I’m not going to the doctor. Right. It’s very interesting the way that that works on this side of healthcare. Oh, it absolutely. And you know, I see the work that people do. you know, we have, you know, amazing therapists and I hear them talking about, you know, some of our guests and what they’re going through and what they’ve experienced and that they use substances in those cases, you know, to to help mask those feelings and to help mask um, you know, their experiences and they they’re doing the work and the therapists are incredible at really peeling back the layers and really seeing, you know, what’s the root cause because, you know, I don’t think that people just all of a sudden start drinking just for fun and then get in, you know, get into it so hard that they can’t get out of it. There’s really an underlying reason why they’ve started and continued. I agree. And you’re right. I I haven’t met anybody in almost 20 years of doing this. It’s like, you know what, six years old, I was like, I’m going to I’m going to be an alcoholic. Yeah. Not a single person. They want to knock the edge off. It grows. It exacerbates, it progresses, which we know is a side effect, right, of this thing. So, so now you’re in Colorado. Yeah. You got beautiful family. I do. Remarried. How long have you been married? Um, better get it right. I feel like I’m not. Uh, not quite a year and a half. Oh, cool. Not not very long. Right on. Yeah. So, you guys have a bigger family now. Mhm. Guys, were your six six person family or is it five? No, it’s uh my husband and I and then we have three boys. Okay, so five. Yeah. Okay, cool. That’s exactly what I grew up with. mom and dad and then uh three boys. Yeah. Yeah. How has uh the move? How has Colorado been? How has the new family? How are things in your life? It’s been great. I mean, it’s certainly an adjustment, right? Uh, of course, I told the boys, “Hey, we’re going to It wasn’t a surprise, right?” You know, cuz my husband has lived out here and if we were going to be together, I had to move here. He Um, so there was definitely some apprehension. uh didn’t want to leave their friends, didn’t you know, didn’t want to I mean, it’s familiar, right? So, but we moved out here and they were great sports and they’ve got friends and, you know, my older son has a girlfriend that’s super sweet. She’s adorable. Um, just really engaged in in life and community and their schools and they’re doing really well. Um, you know, I have to give a shout out to my husband because he’s incredible. He’s done such a good job. uh just stepping into that role. He understands, of course, that he’s he’s not their father, but he knows how important it is to me, you know, to have that male figure. Um, so that, you know, just the guy things, right? Like he wrestles with them and he shows him moves and he does all that stuff. That’s not my Yeah. You know, that’s not my role. So, it’s been great. And um you know, of course, my husband knows all of the things um that have happened and he’s very understanding and empathetic of kind of those those times when uh you know, just it like it can get heavy sometimes. So, he’s really good at that. That’s really cool. He seems like a badass cuz that’s a that’s a tougher situation to step into and to be able to show up for. Oh, I mean being a steparent is one thing, but being a steparent to to two boys that were eight and 12, you know, and they lost their dad. Um, that’s huge. And not I I would actually say there’s not a lot of men in general that not only would be willing to do that, but would be really good at it. Yeah. Um, and he’s really good at it. Yeah. That gave me chills when he said that. That’s a that’s a stack deck. And he walked right in. He’s like, he did. I mean, and he knew it. and he’s just like, “Bring it on.” You know, he’s he’s always up for a challenge. Um, but it hasn’t even been that much of a challenge. I mean, he’s said to me many times before, you know, your boys could tell me to screw off and, you know, go away. Cuz he he’s a little bit more of a disciplinarian than I am. Sure. And he, you know, they they could tell me to screw off and leave them alone. You’re not my dad. They’ve never said that to him. Um, you know, so they’ve really embraced him as well. and they they I think they can see that he really cares and he’s there for them, but he’s not trying to, you know, come in with that like I’m your new dad, you know, that kind of thing. That’s cool. What a delicate dance. Oh, for sure. For sure. Not everybody can do, but it it really appears like you have a seems like you guys are thriving. We are. Yeah, it’s it I’m not going to lie. It’s when you’re merging families, it can be it can be challenging. I don’t think anybody would tell you that it’s not. But, you know, we listen to each other. We, you know, we communicate with each other. He really knows how to listen to me and and if I say, “Hey, you need to back off.” He backs off. Um, he’s really good at it. And I get along amazing with his son. He’s he’s an incredible kid. So, it it was pretty easy, I would say, if you’re going to put it on the scale. Yeah. Um it could have been a lot harder, but it’s been really really really great and I I love it here and I’m really really happy um you know just that I found him. That’s cool. So I’m really happy for you. What a story. Right. Yeah. What an incredible, miraculous, sad, and extraordinary story. It really, really is. Yeah. Um now to Peak’s Recovery. I know you worked at another place across town. Not even across town. a few miles away from Peak’s recovery. What was it about Peaks that drew you there and what’s keeping you here now? Oh, well, so when I showed up, you know, I came for two interviews and I showed up and you can just feel it. You from the minute that you walk in the door and everybody is welcoming and hey, how are you? Everybody is so kind and that’s that’s across the board. So, the guests feel it. They have to. Everybody that I talk to that I’ve brought in and they just they can feel it. They can feel the passion. They can feel the enthusiasm. They can feel the care. It’s not just a place where you go and it’s like, “Oh, here you go. Here’s your number. Here’s your room.” I mean, you sit down with with the guests all the time. Um, and just connect with them. Everybody does. It’s one of my favorite things. And you can you can just feel it. It might sound cheesy, but it’s true. you really can. Um, you know, like you said, I came from a different center and that I don’t think that was the case. I mean, here it’s just way different. And what keeps me here is that you you allow me to stay. I mean, I was telling somebody the other day, I was like, I hope they never fire me because I’m not leaving. Yeah. Somebody asked me the other day, they’re like, “How’s the medical team doing?” I’m like, “Swimmingly, swimmingly.” And there’s actually no follow-up questions if you say swimmingly. Yeah. I’m like, “Is that it? That’s your only question?” Like, “Okay, I’m done. Nothing to say here. Yeah, I love that. You know, it’s interesting that you brought that up and we didn’t even talk about this before the show. Yeah. Um but I always I when I used to call the families, not but year and a half ago, I called every single family that came into the program. I would I would often tell them that you’re going to feel something at Peak’s recovery and and and it’s going to be different. You won’t be able to really define it. Yeah. But it’ll keep you there. And it’s like this space, you know, you had talked about it in our maybe it was in our interview or maybe it was after you were hired, but the the former place that you worked at, you’re like you’d come in and you’d like feel the anxiety. Oh yeah. And feel the tension and feel the intensity. And a lot of our guests, families that have come through, alumni, um, and all points in between really speak to this thing that you can’t see. Yeah. This special sauce at Peaks Recovery. Oh yeah. Why do you think is it the team in general? Is it the way we work together? Is it the mission? Is it all the things? But what do you think creates that in your experience? I think it’s all the things. I really I really do because just it’s just a feeling when you walk in the door and you, you know, like you said, you can’t explain it, but everybody just from the minute you walk in the door, everybody is so kind and welcoming and they all have a smile on their face, which is a credit, right? Because it speaks to what I was saying earlier that you have to want to come to work. You have to want to be there. It’s not just a job. Yeah. I I think for probably 95 plus percent of the people that work there. Yeah. It’s not just a job. It’s it’s a it’s a passion. It’s um you know the communication, the community because we all are really like a team, a very cohesive team. And it’s it’s special. You can feel it because when the team is like that, just like in nursing, when the entire team is like that, it just shines from everybody. Yeah. Yeah. And it I you know, I hate for it to sound cheesy, but it’s so true. It really is. I And I’m not just saying that because I, you know, I work at Peaks. I’m saying it because I can feel it. It’s the moment you walk in the front door. Yep. I’m walking across that long walk we have to do now cuz we can’t park in the parking lot. That was your You told me that. Yeah. And I’m like walking in and I think to myself like I’m looking at Pike Speak. I’m like, “You better find your gratitude button, Chris, cuz you’re about to walk in this door and it’s going to be all over you. There’s Miss Pat.” Ah, there’s Leah. Hey, you know, there’s Fred. It was like, “Oh, shoot. We’re going.” And everybody’s like, and it’s one of those environments where whenever I try to just go by somebody and they say, “Hey, how are you?” It’s like unacceptable. Come back. How are you? I’m like, “Oh, okay. I’m doing well. Happy Wednesday.” All the stuff. Yes. Let’s Yeah, let’s get into it. How was your weekend? That’s not enough. You know, I need to know all the things. What did you get out of your garden this weekend? Where’d you go fishing? Yeah. But it’s so cool because it actually it invites and allows in a workspace something that I think is absent from a lot of professional careers and that’s presence right with each other. And if we can do that or when we do that with each other that experience titrates down to our guests, right? All the staff members and they get to have that experience as well, right? And they, you know, they’re free to walk around anywhere and they can see our conversations with one another. they can see the professionalism and that they can see that we actually care about each other and I’m actually interested in you and you’re interested in in me and what I have going on in my life and they can see that. Yeah. You know, if you’re working in a place where you walk in and everybody’s just, you know, if you’re working somewhere like that and the the guests can see that too. So, um you know, that just really speaks to just the the environment in general, it’s a lot different. I love that. That was well articulated as well. Thank you. Yeah, absolutely. Well, it’s been an extraordinary opportunity bringing you on our wonderful podcast. I want to say we’re probably on60s something episodes or getting close to that. Um, but I really appreciate you allowing me to do what I’ve been doing since 2008, which is turning professional conversations personal one day at a time. Yeah. You know, I think it really really matters the lived experience, the passion associated with it, and then of course the the client care and the guest care that comes as a result. So, thank you so much for coming on. So bold, so humble, and um so authentic. It really means the world. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Cool. Well, I appreciate you. Until next time. Peace.