Episode 165

Anything we can do to keep them from underneath the vi on I25 in Nevada is a very important endeavor for us. It’s difficult for families to remind themselves because it’s scary that we’ve never been here today before. This day has never existed. You may not think you’re capable of everything, but you’re capable of something. And so try to get something on your plate that you’re working towards.
Hey everybody and welcome to another amazing, enthusiastic and heartfelt episode of Finding Peaks. Joined today by a dear friend, colleague, someone that was on episode 138 and we talked about some fearless golf. And when you’re talking about fearless golf, you can’t talk about fearless golf without introducing Mark Clayball. Mark Clayball, welcome to the show, my man. Hey, thank you very much, Chris. It’s an honor to be back. We’re doing a lot of exciting stuff with Fearless Golf. It’s, you know, the the need never ends. Yeah. And so, off we go. I love that you’re doing that. I don’t know if Coupe told you, and I know I haven’t certainly, but we’re getting into the adolescent space. Yeah. So, well, we could definitely work together even more cuz that’s where we’re at. a aside from we do help vets and we’re you know one of the things that um we are focusing on is homelessness in the veteran population but where we started where we continue to grow is kids that age out of foster care and just trying to keep them out of homelessness and I don’t know whether you know or not Chris but the recovery rate for a kid that ends up at the mission that is not in an intensive program is 4% and that’s such a low number that we are doing everything in our power to partner with the place, the tiny home villages, uh, partnerships like that that keep these kids from going to the shelter. Yeah. And so that’s where we’re at. That’s really, really cool. And I appreciate you updating me on that. I was actually meeting with a guy the other day that I was went through the foster care system and he wants to create a nonprofit along those lines just to be some connective tissue cuz correct me if I’m wrong but when when the foster ends these these they just drop off the face of the earth. Yes. They have no resources. It astounds me that there isn’t more of a ramp up to when these kids actually get out of foster care. Fostering Hope is another good organization in town. Love to meet your friend. see if we can’t collaborate and um partner on whatever we can do to help the kids. But it’s a it’s an ongoing issue with, you know, the anxiety and the depression and the uh certainly the drug issue, certainly addiction, it all plays into it. And um you know, the chicken or the egg, what came first? That’s a good question. Mhm. Um but we’re we’re we’re doing whatever we can to be a resource for young people to give them a path out of where they’re at. And so and I have a soft spot for those kids, Chris, as you’ll recall, cuz they don’t have anybody to advocate for them. They don’t have a coach to say, “Hey, you’re close. Hang in there. You’re on the right track. Keep doing what you’re doing.” or hey don’t you know you you don’t you don’t have any business being within 500 miles of that kid or be careful about you know certain decision-m things that you do or be able to challenge them appropriately with employment or a a uh a worthy goal a diploma uh a certification even even everyday life stuff like a a physical fitness um regimen things like that where they could be proud of themselves something to build on yeah some meal health victories. Yeah. Amen. Some confidence, you know, and I I love what you’re talking about here. I was meeting with a clinical director a few weeks back. There’s two sides to this coin really because when we talk about like, you know, if I’m sending my brother to treatment, that’s that’s a path. If you’re sending a family member to treatment, that’s that’s probably the same path. the people we’re talking about helping, we’re talking about healing and and working on the depression and and working on the mental health issues. Those resources are abysmal in comparison, I would say. So, and I I think too that what I found is when these kids get around each other, they they kind of celebrate those ailments. In other words, if bipolar comes up, kid will want bipolar even though he may not actually or she may not have kids. Yes. Yeah, they want to have that excuse, some kind of that that tag. And so part of my thing is to get them on their individual journey and to have them think independently even above and beyond of what their program says. I want them to start forming in their own mind what they’re capable of. And I’m, you know, you got to nibble away at this. You can’t, the old saying goes, you can’t take it in one bite. But it’s a it’s important that they’re on a path. And I tell them it only matters if you’re standing still. If you’re moving forward in any way, God bless you. That’s a good thing. Mhm. How does it start? Like is it is it a is it kind Does it kind of go chronologically? How do you engage with these young individuals? I know they reach you through website and things of that nature, but we do it all through our community partners. And some we end up with um individuals. We’ll get a school counselor that calls us. We’ll get a church, you know, maybe a pastor, youth pastor, somebody that calls us that says, “Hey, we have a candidate for your program. We want to work.” And then the the partnerships are important because um I don’t know whether you have ever heard of Cliff Hunter, but Cliff has a has a nonprofit called Diaonia Project. He teaches kids the trades. Okay? And so we have a lot of his kids. He has a lot of ours, but we try to partner with getting that skill set in bred in them. We work closely with Shelley Jensen at the tiny home village to get them temporary housing. Peggy Bird at the place where there’s they have they need a safe space for a certain amount of time until they gain enough confidence to go out into the world. But that time is limited and also it’s it’s necessary that they use it wisely. And again, anything we can do to keep them from underneath the vioc I25 in Nevada is a very important endeavor for us because what we find is is small steps, but the more a kid functions and goes home and wakes up sober again and then, you know, that builds on it and then they’re able to take on a little bit more, whether that be getting a diploma, whether that be maintaining a job, whether that be um I want to rekindle a relationship with my biological parents or something. And I I’m big on that. We help provide those things. And so, we’re just trying to add value. Golf is simply a reason to get together. And for whatever reason, it has proven to me through the years that there’s an allure to it. I can’t explain it. Kids that would never whiff a golf course. If they make a 12ft putt, if they get an eight iron on the face and it goes up in the air, it it makes the kids happy and they want to come back. And so we we don’t have any trouble with uh attendance. That’s for sure. Yeah. Do you guys work with community partners that also have housing for these individuals when they transition out of foster care? Yes. Okay. And that’s where the place in the tiny home village. It’s so important. They got to have a a place they can go to with that that’s not too chaotic. That’s where trying to keep them out of the mission. It’s no place for a young person there. Yep. No, not at all. Yeah. The reason I ask is we’ve I’ve started working with some friends of mine who’ve gotten into the behavioral health space specifically for sober living. They’ve been working with some nonprofits and some of the nonprofits they’ve been working with and they go buy the real estate and the nonprofit just leases it from them. But the nonprofits are getting funding per house for the rent through the federal government. So they’re getting these grants for their nonprofit. I think he told me today one of the guys in my jiu-jitsu gym, they’re getting five or $6,000 a month per property. So, he’s opening up these properties for this demographic that otherwise wouldn’t be possible. Yes, it’s pretty cool stuff. It’s cool stuff and it’s a lifesaver in many regards because it they don’t have to worry about, okay, well, I don’t have money to pay rent. M um and so that but it it gives the nonprofits, it gives somebody like Shelley Jensen who does the tiny home villages enough incentive where she doesn’t have people breathing down her neck for for payments and costs and things like that where she can actually operate on the human level and try to help these kids. Yeah. That is really cool. I’m sure she’s working with it as well, is um I was meeting with another Medicaid provider out of um Arizona and they do sober living um through Medicaid and they were telling me that they get their their guests um acquainted with resources in the community that can help them pay rent. So now they’re they’re paying a little bit of their bill as well. You know, we’re talking about mental health victories, just little stuff like that. I remember, you know, I wasn’t quite when I got out of treatment, I was on Medicaid. I was on access through Arizona insurance and I was grateful for the time period that I had it and I remember little things for me um seemed monumental like you need to get a driver I got to get an ID card. Mhm. You know exactly you know or like I got to go to social security office and do what? Yes. You know I don’t how do I fill out a thing for food st like yes these are my and but I remember when I did them I remember staring at my first ID. It wasn’t even a license. I’m 22 years old. I should have a license but I had an ID in years. Yes. for good reason because they would have got me, you know. But um I remember looking at it and just like having so much pride. Yeah. Stupid [  ] like that, man. But those are accomplishments. I even talked, you know, a kid bragged to me one time, Chris, about how he actually ordered a pizza with his debit card and that was the biggest deal. He actually was able to rattle off the number and the expiration date and the security, you know, all of that jazz. But he he was that was an accomplishment for him. M and so yeah, look and as you know, you need momentum in life in those little baby steps that you keep going forward and okay, I feel better about how I can function on a day-to-day basis. I know how to do this, this, and this. And I like I tell the kids, only matters if you’re standing still. If you’re nudging forward, good. Mhm. You got it. But and and I I tell them too, look, you may not think you’re capable of everything, but you’re capable of something. And so try to get something on your plate that you’re working towards, whether it be employment, whether it be a certificate or a class or um even like I said, a physical fitness regimen. Hold yourself to it. And I’m always saying, do what you say. Do what you say. Do what you say. If you tell somebody you’re going to do it, do it. You know, if you tell somebody you’re going to text them back or message them or call them, do it. You know, emails, little things like that. Don’t be don’t, you know, don’t let that stuff slide because that’s a habit that will come back to bite you. Mhm. So, they told me when I got to AA, they’re like, “Do what you say and say what you mean.” Yeah. I was like, “Huh?” He’s like, “Do you get what I’m saying?” I’m like, “Say it again.” Did you Did you like 12step? I was a huge advocate for 12 steps and I still am in a way. Um, I did it for six years militantly from the age of 22 to about 27 and a half, 28 years old, right about the time I opened Peaks. And I was um a member at Crazy Birds Group, Alcoholics Anonymous, Prescuit, Arizona, the Unitarian Church. Never missed a meeting. I was told in 2008 that the only way that people like me get to stay alive and operate in this world is to go to meetings. And I didn’t I didn’t really like that option, but they said the other option was jail. I didn’t like that option. So I was like and I had been in jail and I was facing a lot of prison time. And so I was like, you know what? I’m going to I’m going to do this 12step thing to prove it doesn’t work. And I had a sponsor and I had a therapist and I went full steam into it. And you know, in servitude of others created a lot of purpose for me. Purpose that I otherwise hadn’t felt probably my entire life. And so by the time I got a year sober, I’d never been so proud of the guy who was holding it up. I was 23 years old. You know, I meet a lot of 23 year olds with a year sober. I felt very proud and I figured I’d just keep doing it. I really liked that I felt important in in in the 12step way of life. I was of value to people and it was in this community and I was needed. And when I wasn’t there, people asked me where I was and they wanted me there. And I hadn’t felt in a long time um that I was like needed or wanted anywhere. In fact, I’d felt more discarded than anything else. And so for me, it was like, “Holy [  ] I’ll go there just smoke cigarettes with my friends. This is the best place on earth.” And then I got a coffee commitment and I met a lot of really good people, man. Like people that really cared about me and they showed me a lot of care when I otherwise just hadn’t experienced that in a long time, not even from my family. And I was hooked. And I swear to you, it’s the only way to get sober. You could do all that clinical [  ] but you got to come here and work these 12 steps. What I’ve learned throughout the process in the journey of recovery of almost 18 years in July is that I believe in a multitude of ways to the common goal, which is sustaining lifelong recovery. I I think we need to take the rigid gloves off a little bit because younger people have more access to information than I did 20 years ago and they’re just not doing the rigidity as well as people like me did. I’ll tell you back then I said I needed that [  ] I need a swift kick in the ass. A lot of kids aren’t saying that these days. They don’t understand the benefit of that, right? You know, I needed to be just somebody really needed to tell me that I respected to shut up. Mhm. But that was 20 years ago. I couldn’t just jump on YouTube and like do a Bernay Brown and you know like whatever you know a lot of access. So I think we need to ensure I did this talk um the Colorado Champions dinner and I was talking about the five fingers of the glove and we’re talking about the integration of substance use and mental health treatment which is very near and dear to my heart. Um and and I think it comes down to human connection and where humans are feeling connected and where they can connect. um bigger than anything a provided me a community that empowered me to do tremendous things. I wouldn’t have been able to do tremendous things without the community. Today I have a multitude of communities that empowered me to do tremendous things. You know, jiu-jitsu, I have a work family. Um I have an endurance family. I have a mountain hiking family. I have these people in my life. I have close friends that I meet with weekly. I feel very insulated and supported by my community. 12step way of life taught me the value of that. Um, but I believe it can come in any different form or facet. So, I asked you your son, it was like if you ever has he ever done jiu-jitsu because if you did it and he liked it just once, he could get addicted to it. And I’d be all I talked to a lot of people about them. I pretty sure it’s about getting healthfully addicted to new habits, you know? So, I have a I have a very broad approach to the way that I look at things now. And I think what’s tough about folks that are experiencing substance use issues is you don’t meet many people in this world who have more shame inside of them. Mhm. So when you when you come across a human who has that much shame inside of them, you know, whipping somebody with shame, right, just makes more shame. And that can be difficult to not do because substance abusers make you want to smack them sometimes, you know, even the ones we love, you know, myself included. So, it can be really, really tough and it could be a delicate dance. And I’ve been encouraging a lot of people lately and I’ve been trying to do it for myself is like how how might I love this individual into recovery, you know, instead of get this individual to do what I want them to do. Yeah. You know, and that’s that’s the that’s the fine line we all walk. And as as you well know, Chris, I have a personal attachment to the addiction crisis because of my son. And it’s a very difficult road. Um, and you want him to have some say so in his own recovery. On the other hand, um, you’re also you also have the benefit of history of what has not worked in the past and so you try to avoid that. Um, but I the community thing is an interesting point that you make because like in your case when you were in the 12step program, I’m sure that the last thing in the world you wanted to do is disappoint the people that had meant so much to you that you were close to in the in the 12step. You didn’t want to go to a meeting and say, “Guess what? Guess who relapsed.” At the end of the day, too, to your point, at some point, I wanted to make him proud. Yes. And that’s what and then that passion. My son has been a very difficult person to find a passion for. He’s talented. He’s smart as heck, but a passion for like a physical activity um of any case. And and so even even if I don’t I wouldn’t care if it was comic books, something that he cared enough about to not partake. Mhm. And thus far, sadly, that’s, you know, we haven’t been able to get that. Mhm. But it’s a um it’s a neverending quest for peace. I you, as you know, Chris, you wouldn’t trade the headsp space with somebody going through addiction for anything. They’re trying to fill a space. And you’re absolutely right about the shame, the guilt, the, you know, the the unworthiness of a life. Are you kidding me? Yeah, I’m trying to get to tonight, right? You know, I I can’t What are you talking about? A master’s degree or meeting the right girl or, you know, or um you know, walking the the PCT or something, you know, I mean, it’s just it’s not going to happen for me, you know, I don’t have it in me, right? And so the expectation for those people goes in and they’re truly trying to get to the night, just try to get through the day. Mhm. And then of course when they get around each other it’s even worse. Y and um I think that’s the power of those community based resources is cuz it’s been this like battle for me personally and professionally throughout my entire the last 20 years is like how do we how do we get to presence? Because when I’m here with you and I’m drawn in with you and like it’s just like if if and when you can draw your son into a deep conversation, you can tell this side of him turns off and this other side turns on. if only for a moment. But there’s no suffering in the present moment cuz I’m engaged and I’m present with you. And so I think these community based opportunities, whether it’s jiu-jitsu cuz now you’re fighting for your life and people are trying to choke you. And um if you’re if you’re what was so great about mountaineering for me is I would do really difficult routes and then there’s something scientific about it. My doc the docs always talk about it, but I don’t know what it is. But there’s something about when you’re doing something like that requires all of your focus and all of your attention. your brain doesn’t have the space to think about all the [  ] Yes. And so you’re dialed and you feel so alive. And that present moment is something that we tinker with up at the facility with with guests. We have people come in who are experiencing bipolar and they’ll be walking around maybe they’ll be experiencing a manic episode and I’ll take stride with them because you can just they’ll put in steps man over and over and they all have Fitbits and so they do steps and and I can find when I walk with these individuals sometimes and I can get them just for a moment like you like dogs. Yes. That you want to engage like I I have dogs. I have a burn. this thing and you can see the guests will engage out of their anxiety or whatever they’re going through or their episode for a moment of clarity and maybe it’s 10 seconds but it’s beautiful and there’s no suffering and they pop back out and they’re like, “Hey, you got me, man. I’m walking.” Yeah. But then it’s it really is about slowly but surely for me and I’m not doctor therapist or anything. I’m not like never been published or anything. But I I think it really is about building on those moments of clarity and presence to to go from 10 seconds to a minute. Impatient treatment, right? 24 hours of care. Now we’ve got a week, we’re really present. Hopefully by the time we leave inatient care, we’re really present because the noise is turned down and then we’re going into this outpatient thing. But it’s about introducing a multitude of recovery resources or resources in general that curate presence and community. And I think the more we can walk with people into and that’s the that’s the difficult thing I think sometimes is the gap um where the transition takes place. Uh it’s almost like if you could have a friend finder. Yeah. You know recovery friend finder like that walks with you. Like I don’t want to go into a gym. When I first went to a gym I’m scared to death. Yeah. People are nuts. You got people like me in there acting nutty like put putting their leg by their ear and like whatever, you know? It’s like and and so I get that, but I want to walk with people into a gym. Yeah. I want to introduce them to everybody cuz I feel really comfortable in there now. Yeah. You know, so there’s things like that and and and gaps in which we can inform resources in that I think can be really supportive just to helping people feel a little bit more part of cuz it’s one thing to be like, “Hey man, go catch a fish.” You know, my business partner always say he’s like, “But let me teach you how.” Yes. You know, walk with me. Watch me fish. Do you ever work with Colorado Motion here in town? Motion? No. It’s a therapy place up off Garden of the Gods that does teaches um they they take kids on hikes, mountaineering, things like that as part of their counseling. That’s cool. Yeah, it is cool. And that and so we’ve tried that. Mhm. You know, it did not stick. But there’s it’s that headsp space as you say, Chris, to get somebody out of where they’re at. And I even think a book can do it. If you’ve got the right author, the right the right subject matter for the individual, it can take them out of that. Like if you ask my son, explain your condition to me, he will rattle stuff off to you in the most impressive fashion. You’ll think, “Man, this guy’s like a PhD in in addiction.” Yeah. He knows it. Yeah. Um but yet in the moment, he has no no ability to like the impulsivity of bipolar. Of okay. Um I’ve just been in treatment for a year and a half. I’m doing great. I come out. A buddy I met in treatment asks me to come over. I go over to his house. He says, “Hey, I got all this stuff.” And you say, “Oh, sure.” So, you just throw away in a moment a year and a half’s worth of sobriety and without even thinking about it. Sure, I’ll do it. You know, no, it’s probably not a good idea. And so, it it’s that ability to say we don’t want to do it. And that that of course, Chris, as you and I’ve talked about his his coming home scares me because of the triggers and his familiarity with some bad actors. Mh. And so at least there but you know it’s as you and I talked earlier too Chris it’s a matter of getting them to engage in their own recovery and take pride in it and actually enjoy it y and um until you get there though it’s hard and so you know brain chemistry body chemistry they’re used to inducing highs with coke or some other drug and now that’s no longer available and so they got to live with this medium um sort of mood Yeah. And they’re not comfortable with that. So it’s it’s an ongoing effort. And so like what we do with Fearless Golf is we’re constantly trying to find a path for somebody that gives them a reason to get up. Whether it be music, whether it be um I want to study um games. I want to study um geography. I I have an interest in We got to find some interest. What’s your goal? If I could if if you could do anything. Well, it’d be go to see my mom. I haven’t seen her in a long time. Okay. Where does she live? She lives in Corpus Christie, Texas. Let’s get you a plane ticket. Let’s get a hold of your mom. Let’s see how that can work. And these kids are often times like most of the kids you’re working with have experienced probably tons of abuse, tons of trauma, multitudes, right? Yeah. Okay. They’re starting from a very fragile position. Um, two things though. It’s a double-edged sword. Yes. They’re they’re going through hell. However, I tell them, I’m like, “Look, if you can get a handle on this, if you can round the corner, you’re going to have it way over your peers because your peers have not had to deal with this tough stuff. And at some point in their life, they will. And their knees are going to buckle because they’ve never had to develop the grit, that selfbelief, that underlying I’ll be okay.” Yeah. Type stuff because they’ve never had to deal with it. You You’ve put, you know, you’ve had to go through hell. You know, like I’ve had kids that tell me they’ve lived in 50 foster homes. I’ve had kids that were that we took from underneath the vi over there. Yeah. We’ve had kids that have come out of um terribly abusive situations where, you know, we have we work with a young lady. She was here 14, stepmom beat the hell out of her, raped on the west side, ended up I mean it’s a miracle she’s alive. A miracle. M. And so all we do is try to cover their flanks long enough and encourage really we’re we’re we just try to love on them and try to let them know, hey, look, we’re here for you. We want to spend time with you. We value you. When your birthday comes, we’re going to get you a cake. We’re going to have people over. We’re going to celebrate you. We’re going to celebrate when you get a diploma. We’re going to celebrate when you get a job. We’re gonna just find reasons for you to be happy and proud of yourself and keep nudging them along. So, it’s little little constant checks. Yeah. You know, what can we do to help? Do do you need a outfit to go interview in? Let me take a look at your resume. Let’s let Do do you need transportation somewhere? Can we can we help facilitate that where it’s not constantly on a kid’s mind? See, they’re used to dealing with all of it all the time. And so, they do one of two things. either they give up or they take the bare minimum. And so we’re trying to get them to expect a little bit more out of life. Yeah. And as I say, Chris, golf’s just a vehicle. It’s just a reason to get together. It’s called fearless golf cuz I know golf. And so, you know, and I tell kids, look, I like it because it’s visible. You know, if I see you on a golf course, I can tell three fairways over whether you’re having a beer or not. I love that. You know, we don’t call it fearless pool. You know, where Yeah. where you’re in a dark room and maybe you got some privacy and doing some things you shouldn’t. So, it’s it’s and I want them to be in an environment where it makes them uncomfortable at first. Mhm. A lot of these kids never whiff a golf course. If you and I went down the street like on Tahhon downtown and you saw four of our kids coming down the same street, you might say, “Hey, let’s go across the street.” They’re rough, but those are my favorite kind. And I’m sure they’re yours, too. Cuz you can make the biggest influence. You have the biggest influence on them and they need you, but they are the most reluctant to accept the help. Yep. Yeah. And you bring up something I think really unique to at least something I’ve experienced. You know, we talked about the gym earlier, but even the golf course, man, the first time I went out in in a T- box to swing a golf club, first off, you’re at like a nice place. Yeah. There’s all this what I feel like is a lot of stigma, a lot of judgment, a lot of hoyy toy. And I can remember experiencing I was allowed to be there, my brother worked there, all this stuff. You’re helping individuals not only be able to see their value like in the world, but overcome a pretty serious stigmatism. Yes. And you’re walking with them like I’m talking about where you’re not like, “Hey, go golf. Let me know how it goes. You to tell them your ticket 242.” You’re like, “No, man. Hey, I got the tea time where we’re headed out. We’re doing the thing.” I’m with you with them start to finish. And if I’m not with them, we have one of our volunteers that are with them. We have an adult with every group. Um, but you’re absolutely right, Chris. Even to the point, even to the point where, hey, look, you order that bag of box of chicken fingers over there. Here’s some money. Go pay for it. Go say thank you. Go take a seat where you think you should. You know, cuz in the beginning, the kids are all like, “Hey, can you order me this?” I’m like, “No, you’re going to order it. You can do it.” Yeah. You know, I know it’s a little bit different environment. It’s just like a restaurant. Just go up there and tell the lady what you want. Say, “Okay.” And and so just again that little nudging and even even okay how do you listen for your tea time? You know how do you know what that what does the tea time mean? You know when what when what how what are your expectations in regards to dress? What are your expectations in regards to um when you show up preparation? Are you there right at the time? Are you there a little bit early? Are you there and how long should it take you to play? And then what what are your boundaries? Like I said the one thing I like about golfers boundaries. Mhm. Okay. You know that if you’re going this way, you don’t you don’t aim over here. That would be dangerous. It’s kind of what we’re doing for life. A lot of metaphors with it. Yeah, man. And then, you know, bigger than anything for me, too, is like we’ve gone back to the last time around the episode is like the sunshine, fresh air. You know, I always tell Cass because I’m I’ve played a lot of rounds. I wouldn’t say a lot of rounds of golf, but compared to someone who’s never played, I’ve played a lot of rounds of golf. And I always say I want to I want to get better as I get older and I want to live on a golf course. But when I sign up for the uh membership, it’ll probably be expensive. And what what I’ll have to get in there is that I can no shoes barefoot whole time. Even if it’s Pebble Beach barefoot feet cuz I think about it, man. Like there’s this music festival I go to and I think about it every year like 3 months leading up. I’m like put my feet in the earth. It’s so good. And so I’m wondering if there’s golf courses. Wouldn’t that be something? Like you’re all dressed up. You got your shirt tucked in. You got your hat, you know, but we’re going we’re going shoeless. You imagine on the putting green. Oh, that feels so nice. You know what? That’s a great idea. I know the importance of grounding. Hey, in all of that, but don’t put us on the course. Don’t put us on the city course, Mark. As it stands right now, Chris, I don’t think we’d have too many options. I do think it’s a worthy goal. I think it’s something like that, you know, even if it was a community space like look, if you come out, if you want to wear shoes, great. If you don’t want to wear shoes, fine. That’s cool. You know what I mean? Yeah. Type of thing. Most people that are watching like, I wouldn’t want that, but you know, this is a Chris Burns thing for sure. Well, we have our new indoor golf space that we do use a lot of stuff downtown. Okay. And um it’s called City Golf. It’s inside the train wreck restaurant. I got four big, beautiful bays and it’s really cool. And we do a lot of nonprofit stuff in there for the kids, but they’re not required. They can wear I I’ve never seen them go barefoot, but I’ve certainly seen them in socks. Nice. And so it’s it’s a I think you were getting that going the last time, didn’t you? I probably was. And we’re doing fine. We got a long way to go. We’ve come a long way. But it’s one of those things where the kids feel comfortable and um it’s a good place for the for the sponsor adults to meet too where they can the kids are having fun and we’re all having a discussion on the on the various individual needs of each participant so we can address them appropriately. Are most of your participants right at 18? Mhm. No. You can age out of foster care at 15. No way. Yeah. Now, that’s weird. That’s odd. But I’ve I’ve worked with some 15 year olds through that. You’re too young. Yeah. But it I guess it’s legal. And they got nowhere to go. They got nowhere to go other than these places. And so they can end up there. But you know, with the no guard rails, with nobody covering your flanks, um it’s easy to end up on the street and so many of them do. And then, you know, then the then the anger sets in. Mad at the world. I don’t know what you know they don’t know which way to turn. And so what we try to provide is a place to turn and just so hey I don’t and I don’t have all the answers Chris as you well know I don’t all but I I I pride myself on knowing a few people and hey look is if this is what you need let me make a phone call for you um and let me see what we can do. And very few of them honestly are ready for employment. Most of them are not. I’d say maybe 8% are. Yeah. Um, and we’ll help them get introductory positions someplace that they can get their feet wet in the employment world and learn how to show up on time, work with a diverse number of people. Um, you know, basically be willing to organize their day. And so all of that’s important and that’s one of the measurements that we use for success or failure. But if you asked me, if you said, “Mark, what’s the one intangible measurement?” You you use to um you to measure a kid’s success, I’d say their confidence level. If I see it nudging up like Mark, I’ll take that on. I’ll go get him. Yeah. Hey, we need somebody to go get Jim. He’s he’s he didn’t have a ride in this today. I’ll go get him. I’ll be right back. And they do. Yeah. You know, things like that where you can tell, okay, he’s just performing. He’s just fulfilling a responsibility. He’s not looking to get out of something. Yeah. You know what I I found myself I spoke at Peaks last night, told my story, a version of it. I found myself telling everybody in there and I I feel like it rings true for the population you work with as well, is that for me, like I worked in a gas station, then I worked in treatment. So, I’ve just been doing this recovery thing half my life. And when we talk about success like a per like person being successful spiritually, mentally, emotionally, physically, monetarily, like the most successful people I have ever connected with. And and the next demographic would be a huge gap is is people who turn pain into purpose. Deep deep pain. People wrote a month, they had no chance. And so I wonder if you if if you’ve had the experience in working with some of these younger kids that that see the light and when they do, it’s been my experience that they have a way of dealing with life’s pressure. Mhm. In a way that is unbeknownst to regular people. Yes. Yeah. Goes back to the point I made about they’ll their ability to develop grit, a perseverance is amazing and what they can handle as far as gutwrenching problems and disadvantages and really unfair burdens that have been placed upon them by family situations or Lord knows. And it is impressive. Now, I’m not normally with them long enough, Chris. These kids get out at 24, where I could see them really truly bloom. And I haven’t been doing it long enough. I’ve been doing this since 19. Um, but I fully expect that. And I do I have had the pleasure of meeting people like yourself that did round the corner and learn to deal with it that are there’s one guy that comes to my mind in particular, which is my son’s sort of sponsor in Austin. a high energy, dynamic dude, bright to the nth degree, and fearless because of what he’s been through. Nothing nothing phases him. He’s like, “Are you kidding me? I’ve I’ve put myself through hell. I can handle this.” Yeah. And um appropriate risk taker now, but he does not mess with his sobriety. He is attentive to that. And his his um motivation continues to be his son. M he cannot stand the thought of screwing up and having his son suffer the consequences for it. But he’s brilliant. He’s like you. High energy, a lot going on. Can’t you know, let me take it on. Let me take it on. You know, in um in confident in that and yes, you’re right that there is it’s it’s an interesting thing with with addicts. I think that, you know, like in my son’s case too, I don’t know exactly what his IQ is, but I’ve had people tell me it’s way up there. And so he deals with things too that I certainly don’t. My IQ isn’t way up there, but I think like for him, it it it almost lends you like a Van Go. I think in a weird way those that intelligence level lends itself to some some unsettledness, even some mental I I hate to say insanity, but a little bit of discomfort when it comes to where you’re at. Well, I mean, at the very least, like extreme amount of hypervigilance and and weary, good word, hyper vigilance, you know, just kind of like skepticism. What about OCD? Did you suffer from that? Oh, yeah, man. My business partner came in the other day. He’s like, I didn’t know you had OCD. I was like, I didn’t either. Did I tell you I had OCD? He’s like, “Yeah, I can totally see it now.” And I was like, “I got OCD?” Yeah. Yeah. So, I quit. I I picked up a nicotine vape about a year ago. Our business was doing terrible, man. We were hiring and firing and losing money, and it was bad stuff. And I picked up this nicotine vape, man. It was so helpful. I was so grateful for it. But I quit 60 days ago. Yeah. 60 days ago. Let’s go. But in that process of quitting, I saw some OCD come up, man. I’m was like in the office. I’m like, I’m in the break room. I’m like, who even cleans this place, I’m like, you I’m throwing [  ] away all over the place and I’m like, and people are coming in. They’re like, you know, cuz anybody sees me, I’m picking up cigarette butts all over. Can I help you? I’m like, no, can you help me? You would have already helped me cuz this place is a disaster, you know? And I’m just like here and over here. And I’m in my office, man. I’m like putting the pencils over here and I’m putting the pens over here. I’m like any control that I can have I want. So at best I got a little bit of OCD. That stuff shows up. You know, you we talk about healing. That’s the goal. But that’s generally a long-term situation. But when you squeeze on a coping mechanism, it’s like when you got another one, you squeeze on that one, right? Until that healing takes place. And then I’m like, yeah, I can just kind of be with you a little bit better, you know? And that’s a that’s a hard place to get to that long term. But, you know, and it’s and it’s been my experience, Chris, that ADHD, all these kids have it. Um, they all have a certain level of uh antsiness. Mhm. Of Okay, can you go turn the light off over there by uh Grace? Sure. And then by the time they get over there, they’ll get, you know, glass of water or something. They’ll come back. I’m like, hey, forgot to turn off the light. Was I supposed to turn off the light? What were we talking about? Yeah, exactly. They just turn off the light like, “Hey, can you go grab me a Snapple out of the fridge here? Let me go get a snapp.” By the time they’re over there, they’re, you know, they look in the fridge and they shut it and just walk away. It’s like, “Hello, I’m Yeah. So, it’s it’s exactly it.” And bless their hearts. I It’s hard for me to relate other than I hate to see him suffer. and through my own personal experience with my son and as you describe Chris the level of shame, the guilt, the unworthiness, the the I don’t deserve anything. Um I don’t know where it comes from. I really don’t because you know like in my case his twin sister is you know on her way to being a nurse anesthetist and a high achiever and all this stuff. She does she doesn’t have the IQ my son does. Mhm. But yet his proclivity to turn to unhealthy substances um was his downfall. Mhm. It’s interesting because he doesn’t need to work on the stuff that his sister does, right? He doesn’t need to work hard at that at all. And that’s going to come natural. Got to fill this mental health, this substance use gap. Yes. And and I know but it’s it’s high risk, too, as we talked about. It’s scary. But when that gets filled, I mean, that’s the firm foundation with what? Community. Yeah. Great people. I say like I’m a consequence or a like vision of a a a great human to my right and a great human to my left. Even when I bowl even to today, man, like I prefer to go with bumpers. I just I I got to stay in the lane and I got to have really great people around me that are willing to say, “Hey, man. You’re getting a little bit out of who I know you are and want to be.” And those are really great friends. Yeah. Sucks to hear sometimes. I’m like, I’m not. Yeah, you’re right. But I need those people around me. It’s like, I know who Chris Burns wants to be today. And and that’s not in alignment with that. I’m like, for sure. Chucks out. You know, and I think the more people we can have that I look up to, that I care about deeply, that can speak life into me, the better opportunity I have to stay in that bowling lane. Now, you got to be more aware of that when you see it in other people than a person like me that’s never had an addiction issue for your ability to say, “Hey, look, you’re getting a little bit farflung here. Careful. Watch. You know, you’re walking a little close to the edge.” Mhm. Yeah. It’s really easy to see often times in just lifestyle changes far before anybody ever picks up a substance. It’s like I really believe like good outpatient integration like next level is like when they leave the impatient spot like when they leave Austin they have an appointment. We don’t do this anymore cuz we don’t do extended care in the way that we used to but we used to like if you were leaving our program you had a meeting with a sponsor, a therapist, the meeting place you were going to go to. And in fact cuz we were so 12step driven back in the day like you weren’t going home first. the plan. You’re going to the noon meeting to meet the sponsor. He’s taking you out to lunch. You might go out to dinner with the 12step group later and then you go home. They’re like, “But I haven’t seen my family in 3 months.” It’s like, “Yeah, but they’re not as valuable as this is, right?” you know, and so I think if we can introduce people throughout their recovery path or their afterare plan, some of these meetings, I think they got some things in their calendar to look forward to and that are potentially life-saving, mending, and and can fill a gap that otherwise is there. And there’s a steep fall. Do you have any recommendations, Chris, on whether a person would do better in a narcotics anonymous, an alcohol anonymous, you know, that type of wherever they feel comfortable. Yeah. Yeah. So, I went I went to a uh an AA meeting, one of my one of my first personal AA meetings. I used to go as a kid with my mom, but I was like cuz I I’m an addict and an alcoholic, but I like I to be like addicts a little more slick, you know? It’s a little cooler, especially when I was 22 when I was getting sober. Not like these old alcoholics. Yeah. Yeah. Right. So, and so I was in a closed closed meeting of Alcoholics Anonymous. You guys say you’re an alcoholic. And there’s like 10 people. I was in Sedona, Arizona. And I was like, “Oh, well, I’m an addict. I couldn’t wait to [  ] up the meeting, right?” And um this guy goes around cheering the meeting and he said he’s you’re not supposed to cross talk. You can’t share at people. I’m 20. I was 21. This is before I got sober. And he said, “You know what you are? German Shepherd dog. I was like, “What?” He said, “Man, you’ll always be a dog. Doesn’t matter what kind of dog you are.” And I was like, “Damn, man.” Called my mom. I was like, “These people try to kick me out of AA, you know?” It’s like, but but to suffice it to say, what they were saying was it’s like, “It doesn’t matter, dude. Doesn’t matter.” I went to AA because the AA in Prescuit, Arizona was a lot better than the NA. The community, a lot of young people. Um, Colorado Springs, I’m not sure. I think AA has grown certainly in the last 12 years since we’ve been here. We got a lot of alumni in community. So is the dharma stuff. And so um I don’t think anything’s one better or another. I just think wherever there’s better recovery community, you hit that. Last I heard the AA here was a little bit better than the NA. How much say so do you think loved ones should have in a person’s recovery? In other words, locationwise, um, lengthwise, um, you know, how the the the the structure of a program. I mean, um, it’s it’s it’s I I think it’s it’s it’s similar to if you want to get an apartment with somebody in in early recovery. We we we have to have a plan. Mhm. We have a backup plan. We have to have uh an intermediary plan. The plan. Yeah. we need to insulate it with some of these, hey, like I want to support your recovery as well and like if this doesn’t work out in this way and it’s not successful, you know, can we agree to something a little bit different, a little bit more structured, a little bit more of this, maybe some of this? Absolutely. You know, getting some buy in. Hey, like I want to walk with you because I felt it necessary to share with you before and I just thought about it since you brought this up and it’s difficult for families to remind themselves because it’s scary. That we’ve never been here today before. This day has never existed. The past is weighted and can really influence this moment in a way that sometimes is fair and sometimes is unfair, but it’s certainly not present. So, we need to develop a plan in the present moment. I want to give you enough grace to meet you in the moment. You’re 23 years old in so many days and so many seconds right now. That matters to me. And being authentic with that, I think is is really really valuable. And it scares me. And and as your dad, I want you to know that like I’m not upset. I’m not pissed off. Even though sometimes I move to anger, I don’t know what to do. I’m scared. And man, I got nine and 10 year olds at home. I do this for a living and I feel like I have a lot of resources. That scares the [  ] out of me, man. It scares the [  ] out of me. So, I I can empathize with what what you’re walking through. Well, it does me, too. And see, my thing is, Chris is I’ve got other people in the family that I’m trying to protect, too. Mhm. And so his presence nearby is a ambient source of stress that is over the c over the long haul the cumulative is no good for anybody’s health. Yeah, because you’re constantly, oh god, now what? You know, you look at the phone, the time, where, the location, the um just the constant on your mind type stuff. And it’s always worry. It’s never, oh, I’m sure, right? You know, everything’s good. And so that’s been one of my things with um his recovery is look, John, I got to I have to think of other people here. I got to think your mother. I got to think your sisters. I’ve got my own I’ve got responsibility. Somebody’s got to pay for this stuff. Yeah. You know, and so I cannot have the distraction. In other words, I got to go off to work so I can have the financial resources to help you get better. And as you know, it’s not cheap. Um and so you’re doing the very best you can, although we’ve had a lot of people trying to do as much as they can. And I have absolutely no complaints with their buy in and their help in in any way. However, the reality is it takes time and it does take resources and as you said over the long haul. I mean you and I the 30-day rehabs for another day. Y but you know this is a longterm process. Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. And maybe even looking into some, you know, Colorado is the place, then, you know, there’s some extended care resources as well for a little bit longer term. You know, that could be supportive. Cuz really what you want to do as a family is enlist the team and let the team do their thing. Yeah. Build it for them. Build it with them. Family really is like you’re at the club level at the Pepsi Center. Like he can hear you if you’re shooting a free throw. Yeah. Yeah. But otherwise, like he needs to hear the people courtside and the people courtside can’t be family. Uh and that’s the problem right now is you’re trying to you’re trying to do the family and then you’re doing the court side. Yeah. You know, and it’s difficult not to. Yeah. You know, but we want to enlist a team that sits courtside and then eventually who joins the coaches on the court is is is other team members. Yeah. And that’s my community. And I need to hear them yelling at me and I need to hear dad just clapping. So that’s the that that’s the delicate dance and that’s the process. It’s, you know, and it’s funny you bring that up, Chris, cuz I had this guy that I told you reminds me of you, who’s a very talented guy who’s had his own addiction issues, but who’s been clean and sober for a number of years, but he says, I’ll be the bad guy. Mhm. But see, in my as a parent, you’re thinking, look, I’m his dad. Mhm. I’ll handle it. Yep. Um, and you hate to hand that over, but I get his point. And I see it more and more now knowing him the way I do. Mhm. He’d be a hard ass. He’d be like, “No, here’s what you’re going to do. You’re not going to get that car back until you’ve proven to us that you are bought into the process of whatever. Your brain, your body is still adjusting your your equilibrium, your your normal level, you know, that type of thing.” We go through it a lot. We used to do like extended care for affluent young people, like really affluent young people. And families would come through and say, “How do I do it?” You know, “How do we manage this?” And like, “Hey, man. That’s your money. That’s not his. and I’m here to support your recovery, which is really dope. Like, you need the sober living. If and when your team tells me it’s time for the car, like, okay, here’s the car, you know, but I I have to I trust in the professionals. You trust in the professionals. We have a team that does this. Dad’s got to get back to being dad. Yeah. What do you think of a sober coach? I think it’d be great. Absolutely. I know some great ones in town, too. Good. And not only just in town, but in the Colorado area as well. I hear they’re very important. Yeah, he has one now. They’re not cheap either. No. Um, they’re not. But but if you can get him, you know, you start putting these people around him, too, and you’re like, you trust that guy? Yeah, he’s great. I do trust him. Cool. You know, then I trust him. Yeah. And you know, what does Daryl say? I I’m going to start removing dad from all this [  ] What does Daryl say? Sober coach. What is it? Is it What’s his feedback? I’m here to support you recovery. Where’s Daryl at? You know, take the pressure off of dad. Yeah, we got Thanksgiving dinner coming up. What do you think? What do you think about uh frequency of communication with with your with your attic love? I think it needs to be boundaries. Can’t be running Blitz Creek on the phone. You know, it’s not healthy for anybody, you know, setting a and what I mean by that is why don’t we set some meaningful time that matters aside? I say meaningful moments that matter matter the most. It’s kind of my thing. It just goes back into the presence that I think is valuable. But hey, son, like instead of this like knee-jerk, I need this. I need this. Yeah. Could we have a call once a week? Yeah. On a FaceTime for 20 minutes where you have a cup of coffee and I have a cup of coffee and we connect. Mhm. That’d be valuable to me. Yeah. And then you can bring your list to our meeting to our coffee where I really, you know, the goal for me is to connect with my son. Like I’m going to create it’s like date night with the wife, right? Or like, you know, like I need to create some time. I need to be intentional about that. That needs to be felt. Yeah. you know, so that’s what I would recommend there, too. And that’s what I I you know, getting with these kids, too, Chris, that we work with with Fearless Golf, you know, they’re always like, you know, I even have to draw some boundaries with them. Yeah. Because they they have had so little attention in their life that they’re dying for recognition and and they’ll go to great lengths to get it. Y and uh it’s not necessarily unhealthy at all. It’s just a matter of I need this void filled and you’re helping me do that. But yet, hey, look, I can’t have you calling me five times before we get together for golf because you know when we’re getting together for golf, I know why you’re calling. Yeah, but if you’re going to pick up the phone, I’m going to call you 15 times, Mark. Yeah, exactly. You know, that’s it blows Cass’s mind. The phone will be sitting there ringing. She’s like, “You answer?” I’m like, “Absolutely not.” Why? Because I got something going on. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it’s I don’t care who it is. Well, it’s a family. I Sunday, I’ll get a I’ll get a notification because I get my my card cuz I’ll tour a family before they go. It would disrespect. So, on a weekend, you need to call me. It’s emergency. Absolutely not. Yeah. Absolutely not. Not because I don’t think your issue is emergent. It’s because I know you have the contact information of the people that can help you with your emerging issue. I’m not going to uh disconnect my team from an opportunity to be of service to you and do their job extraordinarily well. And frankly, it’s disrespectful to text me on a weekend and say it’s emergency when you have my team at your disposal. I have a I’m a father. Yes. I have kids. Yes. It’s things hard. Yeah. So I And I’ve only started doing that in the last 5 years, but I’m not, dude. I remember this one time in my leadership meeting. I was like, I’m not answering my phone after five. And I thought they were gonna all like boo me. And they all got up and clapped. Yeah. I was like, dude, I’m a tyrannical source rex out here, you know? And so boundaries I think are are very very important are very important. Well, you’ve educated me once again, Chris. I think it’s so valuable. Yeah. To to hear that perspective because I think people need it more than they know they need it. Yeah. Yeah. Because otherwise it’s um you know, you’re chasing your tail. It’s not clear, right? Bnee Brown, back to her before we get out of here. It’s like clear is kind. Might hurt, but I really want to be clear with you. It’s It’s like if I’m supervising an employee. Yeah. And they’re not doing the job well. I don’t want to come in and be like, “You’re fired.” And they’re like, “Oh my god.” Yeah. I want them to come in on that day of supervision and and just hand me the keys. Chris, you’ve been extraordinarily clear with me. This just isn’t this position is not for me. You’ve been a great You’ve been real authentic. It’s been real clear. I just can’t hit the marks. Mhm. That gives me chills, man. That’s like a great That’s what I want to do. Amen. I I don’t want to because I want to have those tough conversations when they need to be had and I want to be clear with like what’s valuable to me, what’s appropriate, what’s not. Otherwise, I’m just a a doormat and it’s very difficult. Speaking of that, there’s a great book I read Patrick Bet David. Have you heard of him? He’s this business guru. Crucial conversations is the name of the book. Okay. And it’s a hell of a sort of a guide on the nec necessity of having tough but incredibly important conversations. Mhm. Anyway, and tough too. Tough and gracious. Yes. Yeah. But like very clear. Yeah. You know, the people that have conversations with me like that, although I hate it sometimes, is so candid. I’m just like, that’s Joseph, my business partner. He he has this way of um having a really direct conversation with you. It’s exactly what you need to hear and and if it’s wellreceived because it’s a fact. Yeah. You know, that’s what that’s the importance of a great partner, too. Yeah. They point out that you without threat of of uh judgment or or a unfair assessment. Hey, look, good point. Yep. Exactly. So, well, thanks for reminding me of the opportunity we have today to kind of like be where our feet are, you know, move our move move our passion and our purpose into this world, impact lives one day at a time. I think it’s I think I get into this work for a lot of the reasons that you do the work too is, you know, there’s been family. It’s very near and dear to my heart that I have the utmost of hope for in the recovery process, but it g me great strength to reach out into the community and u be able to help others as well. Well, our relationship means a great deal to me, Chris. You you as as people get older, they look for depth, and you are certainly a man of depth and your your wisdom, and I’m always trying to learn this and the world you’re in, is needed, and it’s only growing. And so, it it’s been a it’s been a very interesting journey with you. God bless. Thank you. Thank you, Mark. It’s a pleasure. Yes, sir. Thank you so much. It’s always a pleasure. We’ll have to have you on again soon. We’ll do Mark Clayball. Everybody, until next time, thank you so much. Find us on all your podcasts. Peace out, y’all.