Episode 164

You can’t punish somebody into sobriety. And I say that all the time. And I did that. I did that. That’s what we were told to do, right? I was guilty. That’s how I was raised. I always tell people today that I think Peaks in a way has evolved into this this this thing that can heal and and doesn’t create more shame and more burden and more pain on our substance abusers. Music is like a a beautiful way to like find that refuge, regain that identity, um put the stigma behind you, um and move forward. Like I think it’s perfecting untapped for sure.
Hey everybody and welcome to another amazing, exciting and heartfelt episode of Finding Peaks. I am back with my friends from KK Fearless. Today you got your your yours truly, Chris Burns, president and founder in the house. We’ve got Brooke and Melinda. So grateful to have you guys back on the show. We got board members Katie and Len. Welcome to the show for the first time as well. Um I had it written down so I’m going to look. Um, but that you were on show 45, 104, and now show 164. Welcome to the show, you guys. Yeah. Wow. Thank you. Yeah. So grateful to have you. Um, this is a cause and a benefit that is like very near and dear to my heart. And we had done a benefit concert back in 2023 and we raised money and we had the guitar and subsequent things would happen from like a business perspective and life got busy and uh peaks wasn’t in a position to I think really give this space the depth and credit that it really really deserved both Crystal and Kevin specifically. And so I reconnected with you guys and today we were able to inaugurate the space Crystal and Kevin’s Corner for the first time at Peaks Recovery Centers. We’re really thrilled. It’s a nice little nook in the downstairs of the women’s home. We got a beautiful memorial that you all brought in. We got a guitar, a cool drum, a piano, and um I I think a lot of people are going to find um peace and connection in that space. And I think a lot of your mission will show up there to allow and what I always say your mission is and I I know this isn’t like verbatim but I always say you guys create spaces so artists can paint or artists can play you know and so um what was that like for you guys today you know coming back into a very much different space than we were in 10 years ago Melinda overwhelming and uh you know be able to still keep this energy alive keep this mission alive keep those beautiful faces through these beautiful spaces alive. Uh what was that like for you guys today? Yeah, I think it was great to see the space set up. You guys did a wonderful, beautiful job um honoring that space and keeping you know Crystal and Kevin’s corner what we had envisioned uh years ago. Uh it really is beautiful and even seeing some of the residents there um talk about what they did for that space and hope you like what you see down there and that kind of everything that they took into it as well. Um even though you know we talk about this all the time there’s a lot of people including Katie and Lynn people on the board that never met Crystal and Kevin but are here um supporting them and knowing the mission right and just loving that. And so it’s just so uh it’s a beautiful thing really to see that and their legacy still and them still touching people’s lives, you know. That’s why we’re here. Yeah. That’s what started it. That’s that was the whole point. Mhm. You know, to help people in recovery. That’s all I I That’s all I want. Mhm. I just want I want people to have that outlet. Mhm. Um to be able to help them get through their recovery in a healthy space. And it’s a warm space. Mhm. It’s beautiful. The view is unbelievable. The facility is, like I said, I feel like I’m in Bale at some resort, you know? You’re paying $500 a night to stay there kind of thing. That’s what it feels. The vibe. Mhm. The vibe is amazing. So, I couldn’t be honestly, I couldn’t be happier with it. Yeah. I’m so stoked with the way it turned out. And to your point, it just Yeah. It feels like the the vibes are alive there. And it is. Yeah. Mhm. as I’ve been talking lately about the space and about KK Fearless and and more specifically um Crystal who I knew well but Kevin as well and I I put them in the same the same boat but what what I often tell people is that what Crystal and Kevin needed was far beyond what the treatment industry could provide at that time they were far beyond they were so what anybody could offer and it wasn’t they were very very special humans and I always tell people today that I think peaks in a way has evolved into this this this thing that can heal and and doesn’t create more shame and more burden and more pain on our substance abusers, you know, and so I always feel like I need to say that and and that Peaks aims in a way to dismiss and lift that shame so that people like Kevin and Crystal that that struggle with shame and addiction um can do the work that they need to, you know. Yeah. So, Len, Katie, welcome to the show. These are board members. How many board members do we have? Um, total, I think there’s six or seven of us. Okay. Yeah. And how long’s the nonprofit been going? So, it originated we did a year after Crystal’s death. And so, February 12th, 2018 is when we originated as a nonprofit. Okay. Yeah. Cool. So, shoot, man. Almost a decade. Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. It’s gone by fast. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe starting with you, Len, like what has been I think this nonprofit is just so rad. What what you all aim to do to build these musical spaces so people can paint and do their thing and feel safe in doing that is one of the coolest things. But what has it been like being on the board, Len? Um supporting this mission and this vision. Uh so far it’s been um a blessing um in my own life. I met Brooke at work. Uh she’s a co-orker of mine. um she shared her her passion for what she was doing and her nonprofit and it was contagious. Um it moved me. It made me want to be a part of it in any way possible. Um so it gives it gives me also a an avenue to um express my passion for music. Um I never met Kevin or Crystal. Um but like I’ve told before, I kind of feel like I get to know them through her being around her at work. I’m seeing what she’s like and and her inspiration in my own life and my recovery is has had an impact on me personally just watching how she perseveres and does what she does um with her life and in with this nonprofit. So, the music thing is a huge thing for me. Um it’s a refuge in my own recovery. I’m a person in long-term recovery myself and uh so it just makes sense to uh push it into KK as much as I can. Um so yeah. You play music? No, I don’t. But um I spend a lot of time discovering music. Um yeah, I mean that’s pretty much all I do when I’m not working. That’s cool. Um yeah, music’s a big deal to me. Better than medicine. Yeah, it’s so good. I don’t know how to play anything, right? And I think that’s something to touch on too is like with KK Fearless, it’s not We were also thinking about getting headphones to donate and people can just go in and jam, right? Just listen to music because not everyone, including me, know how to play an instrument, you know? I don’t know where they got but it wasn’t me. Yeah. Um but me, Crystal, and Kevin, I mean, we that’s what we did. We listened to music and discovered new music all the time and went to concerts and you know, we are Euro professionals. Let me tell you. Yeah. That’s so good. I mean professionals. Yes. Yeah. So, I think just to kind of touch on that like you don’t need to play an instrument um for us to be able to help or to work through that through your own recovery, through your own healing. You don’t need to know how to play, right? Yep. It’s just the beauty of listening to music itself. Yeah. One of the things I’m most excited about this space. Um is that like one of my favorite things to do is to watch artists on campus do their thing. They’ll write songs there about their stay there. They’ll get together. They’ll cultivate these things. And it’s like I’ll sit there and I’ll just watch and be moved to tears. I’m like, you cool if I watch? And now we got this space where I know that I’ll just be able to just go find people and I can just sit at that table and watch people express themselves because it’s it’s so cool for me because I’m one of these like a type people. I just I’m like I bounce off the wall and I’m very like and then to watch somebody who may be a bit more introverted get behind their instrument like that’s gangster. You’re just like whoa that’s how you talk like Yeah. It makes the hair on my neck stand up expression. It’s an avenue of expression. If they can’t do it another way, they could do it with their music. And that’s something I was thinking. We just went to the guitar center that we grew up going to yesterday. We were in that area. Um, and I just remember I just get flashbacks of seeing Crystal and Kevin go in there and in the little, you know, they have a little studio where you can play the drums or the guitar and just sitting there watching them. Oh, yeah. They’re like 14, 15 years old. Walk in there, grab a guitar, plug it in. They’re jamming out inside their and they’re just themselves, right? Drums and just, you know, they they taught themselves and it was their the way they healed themselves. Was he a drummer? They both were. They knew how to play a lot of They taught themselves drums and guitar and then Crystal taught herself uh piano. Oh, it’s beautiful. So, um we do have that video of her playing a song on the piano. So, just those people that could just Yeah, there are those people. Yeah. And then here’s me and Brooke. I’m like like how do I even like move this hand? I know it has to be not coordinated at all. Hear it. I love it, but I can’t play. I can’t do it. It’s so cool to watch. Yeah, they were amazing. They were amazing people. Mhm. They were. How about you, Katie? How long have you been on the board and and you know what kind of like impassions you about the project and the mission and kind of being here today? um been on the board for a few months. I also met Brooke at work. Um and music’s been a huge part of my recovery. Um music’s just been a big part of my life in general. Um and it’s been so helpful and beneficial that, you know, want to spread it to other people for their recovery as well. Mhm. So I’m not as talented as like just pick it up and burning strings which I wish I could. Yeah. Yeah. You do play the guitar though. I’m working on that. Yeah. She’s learning. Nice. I was more of a choir person. Mhm. You sing. Not well anymore. They call me the my generation.
That’s really really cool. It’s inspiring to be around other artists too. Even though like I don’t consider myself an artist or maybe I maybe I do. I just have a different kind of paintbrush and I think we’re all artists. I was going to say you’re an artist, you know. It’s just different. Yeah. And we’re all kind of doing our our painting of life and walking that thing through one day at a time, you know. But it’s interesting and I’ve told this story I think the first time maybe I had Brooke and maybe Stephanie on, but maybe Melinda was on as well. Um I when I got into this field I was 22 23 years old. I’m 40 now. M so I’m I’ve grown up in this thing and I’ll never forget I couldn’t wait. I was a house manager and I and I ran across this kid named Kyle. This kid named Kyle had been in this program that I’d been in for like 12 months. Like I thought it was a six-month program, whatever. So I would sit down with Kyle and I’m like a behavioral health tech house manager and I’m like it’s almost 20 years ago and I’m like Kyle tell me about yourself. He’s like yeah so my dad’s an orthodontist. I’m like oh okay cool. You know, I said, “What’s your mom do?” Said, “Mom’s an orthodontist.” I said, “What’s your cousins?” You know, my cousin’s loser. He does general dentistry, you know, or whatever. You know, they’re all dentists or orthodontist and dentist and orthodontist and dentist and orthodontist. Successful. Everyone’s successful. He hasn’t told me any issues from mental health perspective whatsoever other than a fluency and success. And I said, “Kyle, what are you?” And he goes, “I’m an artist.” And in that moment and having like fast forwarded through a 20-year career, I knew ex I know exactly what I am sitting in front of. And it’s been my experience over the last 18 to 20 years. A lot of times artists, they get so lost in our society because when we look at things like what’s the test, the IQ test, there’s not a lot of like I don’t I I’ve never taken an IQ test, but I imagine I wouldn’t do well. But now they have these new IQ tests that in inform like social and this artist thing and all these other components that inform I think some of this stuff that we’re talking about because often times artists are told why don’t you do something with your life that isn’t what you love cuz that would be foolish, right? Yeah. It’s the measurement. What do you measure yourself against? Yeah. It’s different for everybody because it usually comes from your environment. your environment that you grow up in um you know your friends. You measure yourself against that. So yeah. And sometimes dad’s like this big CEO and you’re a drummer. Yeah. And he’s like Yeah. They don’t get it. They’re on a different plane. Exactly. They don’t get it because they think differently. And And that’s okay. Right. Until somebody says, “You know what? I know I’m a CEO. I know I own this company. and I do all this, but you do you. Yeah. Yeah. And that’s what I love about What’s wrong with that? Exactly. Absolutely nothing. And that’s where sustainable recovery lives. Exactly. Exactly. Be okay with it. I think that goes hand in hand with with a person in recovery, you know, music, um someone in in active recovery, they’re they’re trying to um find their identity again. Oh, yeah. Yeah. you lose yourself, right? Lose yourself. You lose yourself. Music is like a beautiful way to like find that refuge, regain that identity. Um, put the stigma behind you. Yeah. Um, and move forward. Like I think it’s perfect thing. Untapped for sure in recovery. Yeah. Well said. Yeah. That’s beautiful. And I really believe like sustainable recovery is like what I do, what I what I’m passionate about. I I got to touch every day. Yeah. Like it’s what it’s what makes my soul sink, you know? And so what I tell artists, anybody who’s coming in, like if we paint, we paint every day. Whether we get paid for it or not, like if we play, we play every day. Like we’re into this thing that makes us come alive. And if some if if one day we’re at Red Rocks, one day we’re at Red Rocks, so be it. But otherwise, like I want to I want to feel that aliveness. I want to be connected with these things. I remember I used to do this. I don’t know if I’ve told you guys, but when I was a young entrepreneur, not not a young entrepreneur. I guess I would have been a young entrepreneur, but I was working for somebody, but I was a young house manager. They used to do this thing called music therapy at this place that I worked called Decision Point Center, and it was 1 hour every Thursday. And they’re like, “Chris, I mean, yeah, hopefully places that are doing it give it a little bit more uh a little bit more foundation than they did, but they’re like, “Chris, you do music therapy.” And I was like, “I can get I’ll do anything, man. I remember you. Yeah, you remember, right? So, I’m like, okay, so I’m music therapist. Like, let’s go. Like, what are we doing? Music moves my soul. You know what I’m saying? So, we get in there and I’m like, oh [ __ ] this is going bad. You know, but for the most part, it was just about us kind of getting together, vibing on the music, learning what that song may or may not have meant for the individual, understanding that, connecting with the person through that, and walking forward. And it so it was this very, very cool thing. Um that I think is just like music has this um I think the ethos of it in general is like a togetherness. It brings people together. Music will connect. Yeah. You can connect through music. And personally I can tell you how old I was and where I was from the song. I do it all the time. Oh, I was 13 and we lived in Aurora. Oh my god. When the song came out. I can tell you where I was. I remember all just because of the song. Not because I remember. I can’t remember what I did yesterday. Yeah, but I can tell you if certain song comes on, I can tell you how old I was and where I was and what was going on and that sort of thing. So that’s the connection with music doesn’t have to be I wasn’t I wasn’t sitting playing the guitar, right? I was listening to a song, the Go. I just heard it the other day. The Go-Os. We got the beat. I was 12. Oh, really? Oh, no way. That’s great. I was 12. That’s great. I was 12. I don’t know why. Like the cranberries are one of those bands for me, too. Just like kind of string you through time. You hear it and you go, “Oh my god, I remember this song and I was here and I this is when the music video came out and Yeah. Yeah. I was there when the first like John Baj joi
the first video. I’m serious. That’s awesome. Yeah. The first video. Back in my day. Back in my day. Well, you’re much older than me. Yeah. Right. We already talked about this, but back in my day, you would get the CD case or the tape case and you’d open it up because you’d be going to school the next day. You’d have to know the words of the songs. You didn’t want to be the person in fifth grade who didn’t know the words to the new Melissa Ethridge album or whatever. Sometimes they have the lyrics. Exactly. Yeah. And that was so disappointing. Yeah. I didn’t know they had lyrics on them. Yeah. So that’s how you because my kids now are like how do you know every word to this dad? I’m like cuz you read it back in the day. You just listen. You read it. And when you went from cassette tapes to CDs, it was great because the CDs, they had enough room in there to put the thing so you can unfold it and you had all the cassette tapes didn’t. And neither did vinyl cuz Yeah. I could go back as far as vinyl and Yeah. Now I got vinyl now. Oh, yeah. I love vinyl. Yeah. I had I had albums. I could tell my brother brought me Steve Miller Band when I was 7 years old for my birthday. Oh, that’s cool. I mean, that’s that’s how I associate her and it’s good. It’s good stuff. Y I remember my dad had the Billy Ray Cyrus tape. Oh, yeah. Yeah. No. Yeah. Achy break your heart. It’s so funny. Yeah. I can tell you how old I was. Anybody want to know where I was? Did I ever tell you guys your music, man? It’s just we could all connect through music forever. And I think it’s cool that we’re having a conversation about it. Um, Miss Star was my I’ve said this on the podcast. Coop knows the whole story. But since we’re talking about music, so there in the early 90s, they would do you would you would pick a song, sing it out loud, and get a grade from the teacher. Oh, and you could have partners or you could do it by yourself, right? And I was like I always felt like I was on the edge of cool, but never quite like cool. No, just like right on the edge most often and just not in there. And so like back in the in the early 90s, one of the cool songs that was out was a Culio Dangerous Minds. Oh yeah. D gangster Paradise, right? And so everybody knew like you’re singing that song, man, like and you’re hiding it from your parents or you’re not or whatever, like and so I’m on the outside of Cool. So my three what I thought were my friends. They do the song. They didn’t ask me to be a part of it. So I’m I’m over here and my mom, she had just had got the new Melissa Ethridge album. Oh yeah. That had the song on it. Come to my window. Oh yeah. Right. Uhhuh. I’m third grade boy. You know what I mean? It’s hard. It’s early ‘9s, right? There’s no cameras. Like, so I go in there. I basically get booed out of there. She gives me a C minus out loud. Oh, no wonder the treatment really became popular like when I hit my 20s cuz we were like, “What?” Yeah. Right. They were given C minuses out loud by me star. Wow. And then the guys came up with Dangerous Minds. They got an A minus. Oh, they were so cool. And they were the coolest. I’m just like, “Oh, I was this is devastating.” Like, this is the worst. But so I’ve always thought about that. But yeah, music’s so valuable. Yeah. You don’t want to be on the edge of cool. Yeah. It’s a testament to how powerful it really is. In active addiction, I think I think music’s powerful for the wrong reasons sometimes, but in recovery, just as powerful, like the other end of the spectrum. Yeah. That’s why we would love to just push it everywhere we can. Yeah. Yeah. That’s we’re figuring it out. But yeah, now that we’re on that side of it, push it hard. Yeah. That’s nice. Yeah, I remember being in early recovery. Me and my roommate Rody, we picked up like one, two, three, four ears together. Um, and um, we would we would play music on the thing. We’d plug our phones in, play music. We would just clean and we would dump all our underwear out on the table. We would count them. Well, cuz when you’re in, we didn’t have very many underwear, unfortunately. So, we I came in with like one pair that were pretty tattered, you know, a lot of space in those things. And so, I remember we’re like, we’re like four months sober. Simple stuff, right? We’re we’re jamming, dude. We got the music. We got playlist. We can download music cuz we got phones and we got internet connection. Like really creature comforts that people take for granted that we didn’t have. And we do it and we’re like, we got six pairs of Tony’s, you know, and we’re listening to our favorite band and we’re in recovery. It’s like, dude, I remember those times. I talked about them all the time, like simplest, most gratifying, like connected times of our lives, you know, and a lot of it had to do with music, mopping, yeah, you know, undies and things. I’m a strong believer in it. I watched somebody that I love very much was an alcoholic for many, many years. And he got sober by putting headphones on and playing his guitar for months, weeks at a time. Mhm. That’s all he did when he wasn’t working. And that’s how he got sober. And he’s still sober. It’s interesting you’re in saying that, too, because a lot of the movement, especially for our vets who we’ve gotten into serving through our Triricare Tri West contract, um, a lot of the movement for the for vets is in the psychedelic realm now. Yeah. But a lot of it is integrated through song through music. Well, don’t isn’t it in the therapeutic setting they sit and listen to music while they’re Yeah. While they’re Yeah. And they’ll put on the eye I wear eye mask to go to sleep. I love it. But yeah, they wear they do that as well. Um and for like four to six hours it’s just like whatever comes to them through the music. I’m very hopeful for that because my my husband Jason is a Marine and he’s a Gulf War vet. Oh wow. and um he has a lot of PTSD and you know that sort of thing and I’m really hopeful that that’s something that he’ll be able to get to be a part of because I think it’ll be a lot more helpful than everything else they don’t do. Yeah, there’s a lot of um we’ve been in the space now for over the last year. We have a military leaison. He’s a 23 uh year vet. He’s been deployed six times. He’s on and off works in United States Air Force Academy. We work with a tremendous amount of providers up in Denver that’s serving this population. We’ve had Sam Peterson as well as Dr. Ron Schwinkler on the show. Uh he’s the psychologist for Denver Mind Spa up in Denver. I think in my opinion they’re doing some of the most funky stuff for vets, combat vets. They’re doing intraasal stem cell. They’re getting it approved through the VA. Vets are having TBI remission of symptoms in like 20 days. Oh wow. Um, not only does he do the TMS that we were talking about, the transcranial magnetic, he couples it with ketamine therapy through song, their ketamine chairs have Dr. Ron plays the sound bowls and they have like speakers on like boom boom like the vibration. Yeah. Know drags it through and they have hyperbaric oxygen chamber like they’re doing all this really really cool stuff. So um especially for PTSD and TBI and things of that nature. So and it’s interesting because all all of it’s integrated through song. Yeah. Yes. you know. Yeah, cuz sometimes like I’m going to see a artist say, this guy named protege and I call it protege church and people are like, “What are you talking about?” I’m like, “I made that up. I made that up.” But like, “What’s protege church?” I’m like, “If you just like, especially with music,” and I’ve learned this maybe over just the last few years when I’ve gotten more comfortable just kind of being who I am, which is just kind of this nutty dude. And that’s okay. And it’s okay to let that out a little bit. You know what I’m saying? And so like just being like at a concert and you’re vibing on some music, it’s like, “Hey, we’re just going to be with this, man. Just let your body do what it needs to do and shake that [  ] out.” And who cares? Like it doesn’t like I don’t have to look cool, any of that. We’re just going to be with the vibration and do this thing. And so like music over the last few years, specifically concerts, maybe it’s Red Rocks or just like taking my shoes off or just being with something. And this is like, you know, 18 years of sobriety in June, you know, like, and this is just like, wow. You know, so I love it. I love that we’re talking about this because I don’t I don’t know that there’s been something over the last few years. I didn’t go to concerts before I got sober ever. Never. Maybe like one or two. I was busy. Used to be opposite. Yeah. So like I get to go and I’m like, “Oh man, it seems heavy to drink.” Usually one and the same. Yeah. It seems really these stairs. Like I always think at red rocks when people are drinking I’m like [  ] stairs to climb like that man you know. Yeah. Imagine you got drunk and you got to go to the bathroom at the bottom and you got to come back at the top. I’m like dude this is hard for me dark. Yeah. I’m like totally with it you know. So yeah it’s it’s just it’s been so cool just having you guys back on today back in the facility like coming full circle which was you know literally a decade ago as we talked about. Um a lot of things have evolved for us and growing up. We kind of had a chat in the corner of, you know, some of the professionals aren’t here and it and it’s nothing about the professionals that aren’t here. It’s about the company and the business being able to evolve long term. It’s growth. Yeah. Yeah. To help you’re going to have to grow and create that culture like I said. Yeah. You know. Yeah. Yeah. And our mission here still is it’s very clear. It’s to save lives and it’s disrupt the industry through quality of care because as we’ve talked about before, not only were they ahead of this industry’s time, um I think a lot of people need to aim to be ahead of this industry’s time. There’s 13,000 treatment providers. I wouldn’t send someone I hated to 12,950 of them. And Peaks wants to be one of those 50 that aims to anchor with families like yourself to walk in a true and an authentic way into healing, not lifelong suffering. Yeah. Yeah. We got to get away from I mean not only the stigma which we’ve talked about many times the stigma of addiction but until you can’t punish somebody into sobriety and I say that all the time and I did that. I did that. That’s what we were told to do. Right. I was guilty. That’s how I was raised. My mom did it to my brother. Tough love. Yeah. Yes. Tough love. There we were. You know that that generation my generation was all about that tough love. Get up and do it. Don’t be a [  ] Well, not only that. Not only that, Melinda, but like intervention is like flying off the shelves when you’re going through this, right? And so it’s about bringing It’s interesting, too, and it’s sad because we don’t do it anymore, but it it really aims to bring the most vulnerable person into the room, wage every single piece of connection that they love and care about against them. Yes. And hope they make a good decision 100%. And you cannot punish anybody into sobriety. It doesn’t work that way. And unfortunately, I figured out the hard way. Mhm. I figured I two I lost two to it. Yeah. Because I That’s how I was raised. Mhm. Was you know you you don’t we don’t do [  ] like this. Y right. That’s not how we do things. Yeah. So get sober. Yeah. Not only were you raised by that, the industry met you in a very vulnerable spot as a parent because you’re you’re raised by this generational thing and then you’re coming into an industry like you’re right. Get your [  ] together. That’s how that’s what it was. It was like you were you were looked at like you were some loser because you know you you had addiction and unfortunately it’s still like that today. But as a parent, as a parent, that’s the biggest advice I could give a parent that’s has a child, old, young, it doesn’t matter. You cannot punish them sober. Yeah. You will not punish them sober. You have to try to get other people involved. Yeah. Like this. You have to give them that opportunity somehow. Mhm. Somehow for somebody to accept them for who they are. Yeah. I love what you’re saying. And write it. And you have to write it. And when when one person in your family is in active addiction, everybody is. Yeah. And a lot of people don’t realize that until you’re in it. Yeah. You know, you got to get far enough away from it to look back and say, “Yeah, man. I [  ] that up. I should have never done that.” And I do it all the time. Mhm. I love what you’re saying, Melinda, because what you’re talking about now is kind of the ethos of the way that we kind of walk people into recovery. And that’s what you were telling me today. It’s about I’m actually instead of going to wage this against you. I’m going to love you into recovery. Yes, exactly. I’m going to inform your values so much that you’re actually going to make a you’re going to pick up the phone and call because I’m just going to keep loving on you and I’m going to show you how much I love you and that I’m not going anywhere. And yeah, that behavior it’s not going to apply here and you can’t take my stuff and things like that. Sure. But I you are so lovable. You know what I mean? And I think somewhere and along the lines in our field we got lazy or we picked it up or we put it down. But I think it’s back to your point. It’s like, you know, my grandfather was the greatest human I ever met until I got into recovery. And you better His thing on kids was like, “You’d be seen, not heard.” Exactly. That’s that was a great guy. He’s my guy. You know what I mean? And I remember Thanksgiving, man, you couldn’t even hear the adult table, you know? And then we’re coming into here and it’s no wonder it’s taken us so long as a field and as an environment to go, “Oh, addiction, not no, not bad.” Yeah. Hard to get enough of something that almost works. That’s how we look at it. It has to be looked at as a medical issue, right? It’s not a criminal issue. It’s a medical issue. And until people start looking at it as a medical issue, mental health is medical. Yep. It’s not criminal because you’re struggling to get through the day and you steal something so you can get high. Okay. Yeah, you committed a crime, but what does that make you? I mean, are you really now a criminal? Like, maybe titlewise, but We have everybody has to stop especially law enforcement. Yeah. There there’s a lot of training that has to be done with mental health. Agree. A lot. And they and they are doing it and you hear talk of it and um talking to Brooke about different things that they’ve done in places she’s worked. Um but until everybody looks at it as like this is a health issue. This isn’t a criminal issue. Just cuz you’re an addict does not make you automatically a criminal. Oh, for sure. And it’s interesting. I I love that you say that too because everybody copes. I just happen to have a beer in my hand or whatever and it worked. Yeah. But like also too like my wife struggled with codependency. People die that way all the time from relationships. And if somebody with codependency who has this ability to put value in others more than themselves, if they live to 90 and a substance user lives to 90, they’re in the same spot, isolated, disconnected, all alone with no friends. It just so happens that substances have this informed risk and so people are like it’s the bad thing. Ever since Reagan was like war on drugs, you know, it’s like get them every like [  ] you know, it’s like but it’s not like I used to also tune my world out to say that I would disassociate so bad that you could be chopping up a body. I’ve never seen a body chopped up. I’ve said this before, but like I would disassociate and there’s such harmful effects to that. You get on probation at 22, you can’t follow the rules. Why? Well, cuz this behavior kept me alive at a young age and now it’s killing me as an adult. Similar to the substance thing. And so I think we got to just give our substance abusers a little bit of grace and space. And that’s why the Peaks model now, we don’t do substance use. We do mental health. Mentally healthy people don’t cope with substances. It’s not we can’t sobrietize sobriety into people. It’s the inverse, right? So now it’s like let’s work on our mental health. We might have some falls. We might have some scrapes, but let’s aim for mentally healthy. Yeah. And then watch the addiction go away. Watch the shame leave instead of being like, “What’s your relapse prevention plan? How many people have you called today? How many?” It’s like, “Oh jeez, this is shitty.” Yeah. So, and also after after recovery. Yeah. Long. Yeah. You have 28 days. You’ve got whatever it is, it doesn’t matter. Yeah. But what you do after that is really important too. You have, you know, because that’s everything when uh that’s usually when we lost Kevin was he would do great and even Crystal did a couple times. He do great and then it’s like, okay, he did great. Bye. Right. Bye. You know, and then they’re on the street and they’re like, “Where where’s everybody at now?” Mhm. You know, nobody wants to talk to him cuz you don’t want to be associating, right? You’re talking about community and it’s everything and it’s got to be long term. And it’s interesting you say that cuz what what folks find like Crystal and Kevin in programs like ours is, “Oh, this is what it feels like to be seen, valued, and heard in community. This is excellent.” So, they thrive and then they leave and they’re like, “Oh, this is what it feels like not to be seen, valued, and heard in community. So, I survive.” And then we come back into the facility. I know how. And then here we go. And it’s the cycle. Here we go again. Wow, this feels good. If we could emulate this somehow in community and have people that care, you know, but it’s almost like you can’t introduce the community quick enough down the line, you know? You got to have a lot of resources available to people for them to turn to when they are released from jail, from recovery, whatever. You know, they they still need help. 28 days is not going to it. All it does is get you sober. That’s why I said it’s like a it’s a detox. It’s a 28 day detox. Stability best. Exactly. And talk about what’s going on and you kind of clear your head to where you can think about things a little bit clearer and then you leave and then it’s there’s no support anymore. You’re on your own. Yep. And not only that, but you’re actually more vulnerable. Yeah. You have no job. You have no money. Your family doesn’t talk to you. Have no friends because you’ve screwed everybody over. But figure it out. Right. Yeah. Figure it out. Yeah. And I think sometimes like a person in long-term recovery like myself, there has to be consistency with just presence, just a kind gesture. We talk about it at work a lot like, oh yeah, you get burnt out. I mean, it’s a lot. It’s hard. But if you just give someone just a moment, what’s what’s the big deal? Maybe that’s all they’re going to need. And you keep doing it. Um, as a person in long-term recovery, that’s that’s huge for me. Yeah. To give to give back to people. because I’m not going to have all the answers. Um my my road to recovery is going to be different than theirs, but if I show up for them consistently, I might be what gets them over the hump. Yeah. You know, and it doesn’t take much. It really doesn’t. Yeah. It feels good for you. Yeah. It absolutely my recovery big time. That’s a great point. Yeah. That’s huge. It’s And when you really spend a moment, not like, “Hey, how are you? Okay. Great day. Bye.” Oh, yeah. But when you just do a moment, I call them like meaningful moments that matter. Yeah, people are like, “Fuck, you actually cared and it was like 8 seconds like thanks.” You know, so finding that I think we have a team of them at Peaks right now. It’s like that’s kind of the standard since over the last year is like, “Hey man, we’re going to show up and check it out.” Every day has to be like the Super Bowl, cuz these people that are walking in are making the most courageous decision of their lives. And somewhere somehow someway in our field, we’ve lost sight of that. So this is the standard. If you can’t meet the standard, you can’t be here. It has nothing to do with you. It has everything to do with us. It’s just what we got to do. This is our mission and it’s one day at a time. And the people that walk in the door like we got this one moment and these people Yeah. They’re hypervigilant. They’re not trusting. They’re called trauma informed people because they’ve walked through a lot and then they know [  ] Oh yeah. So quick. They’re like this is whack. You know, you’re like, I don’t know why we couldn’t say it’s like Yeah. Because you weren’t authentic with a human. Exactly. You know, in a moment where you’re a [ __ ] stranger. Yep. So, I’m really grateful too that I could sit here with you guys a decade removed and having really grown peaks in a way that I think is um really really valuable to the human race. You know, in the midst of a healthcare industry that’s being taken over by companies that are publicly traded on the Dow Jones for hundreds of thousands of dollars. Yeah. You know, we still got this personal touch. We’re able to sit here and I think through KK Fearless, Melinda, Brooke, you all’s impact and your voices, we get to keep Crystal and Kevin alive one day at a time in a really, really tremendous way. Yeah. And continue to talk about this. Yeah. Yeah. And I really appreciate what Peace has done. Yes. Um through it all as well and being a huge supporter with KK Fearless and Crystal and having a photo of her and just bringing this Crystal in Kevin’s corner. I mean you guys, it’s huge and we really appreciate repay you for that. Yeah. There’s no amount of money that would suffice to pay back for that. Yeah. Well, and you’re helping us carry on that legacy. You know, you have a huge part in that. Huge part. Yeah. You guys were a huge part of Crystal’s recovery, you know. Yeah. And uh if her little brother wouldn’t have passed away, she probably would still be here, right? We have to assume. Yeah. That you know, grief plays a a huge part in addiction also, which is mental health. It all just one big circle. Now we have a grief week. Turns out it’s a really big thing right now because a lot of people use, you know, that’s mental health. Grief. Yeah. Grief will take you down. Most people in this world are rolling over grief like it’s a little speed bump. These are big things. Oh god. Yeah. Yeah. It’ll take you out of the game. Completely. Well, I want you to know and I and I know you know this, but um Peaks is alive and well and I am committed from this platform to continue to tell this story. Um and and I assure you that our platform is going to continue to grow and the story is going to get louder. It’s going to get bigger. It’s going to get more connected. Um, and we’re going to continue to do that one day at a time. And we will do whatever we have to to help with that. Make sure it happens. Whatever you need, whatever we have to do. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think we just hope that the the music space really does touch people, you know, make an impact in their recovery. Yeah. We want it to help somebody. I want someone to walk away and really think about that um when they’re not at the facility and still take that with them. Exactly. And try to and and take that piece of it and um hold on to that hopefully, you know, and remember that it’s really important. Yeah, it’s uh what this space will do. I think um I I I’m close to it, so I I know it’s going to be very very impactful. In fact, we had a guy go through our program and I’ll kind of leave you this just the power of music. Um, his name was Luke and his family was a um, a bunch of musicians on Broadway back in New York City. He’s from Manhattan. I see. Been to our program a couple times and um, the last time he came here, he’s doing really, really well. He’s up in Denver, unfortunately. Lost his life over. Luke, I mean, when he sang, it was so good. And so, he wrote this song when he was at Peaks and he played it and I had a video of it. It’s so good. It’s like 4 minutes and he just rips and it’s all about his thing here and recovery and it’s acoustic. So I call his dad after he passes, right? Right. And I said, you know, like I actually called his mom and his dad called me back. And sometimes artists are very stoked to, you know, they have a different way of expressing their emotions and things of that through, you know, and so I have this call with him and I said, “Hey, I I have a video of your son.” And every time this video, I played this video, I moved it. It’s how I remember Luke. And so I I sent it to his dad. And you know, 20 minutes later, he says, “That’s how I’m going to remember my boy. Mhm. You know what I mean? And I have these moments and these memories of of humans that um are no longer here. Um and I have these very very wonderful memories because I believe that I get to spend sometimes unfortunately or fortunately some of the best moments of people’s lives with them. Yeah. Oh, you do? And a side of their family they don’t see. You get to see that side, you know. Yeah. Really awesome. So, having said that, I I thank you for sharing your family with me. It means a lot. Thank you. Um, and thank you guys for coming on the show. Thank you, Robin. Uh, thank you all my beautiful people out there in podcast land. Until next time, my beautiful people.