Episode 162

You know, I think for guys like me who had multiple combat deployments, seen a lot of, you know, death and destruction, I don’t think you you ever get past that. I think it’s something that you just get comfortable living with. Your problems don’t leave you just because you left your home and joined the army. Like a lot of those problems are going to follow you. So, you know, wherever you go, there you are. Yeah. Exactly. peaks uh in the work that we can do here is really going to mesh with kind of where I think the army’s going with um you know like mental health and substance use like help is not a cookie cutter solution right
hey everybody and welcome to another episode of finding peaks we’re at likeund and something getting close to 200 actually but uh I I am really excited today to be joined by my good friend, colleague, um, Army veteran, a good friend of mine, new and newly integrated into Peaks Recovery, military liaison, Michael Sullley. Grateful to have you on the show, sir. Thanks for having me here. I really appreciate it. Absolutely, man. I met Mike in jiu-jitsu about four years ago. Our kids fight together and kind of do this stuff. and had a meeting with him a couple months ago and we were on the precipice as I’ve talked about on the show of really starting to have a big integrated community integration and a larger footprint for not only our service members um our active service members but their families and their children and so Mike’s playing a huge role and already began to play a huge role in integrating us down there before Carson and um what makes you Mike what makes you so excited about kind of this uh this new path forward for you um professional Well, I think uh kind of for me it’s it’s a little novel. It’s new. It’s not really a space that I’m used to really working in. So, dealing with uh substance use disorder and mental health. Um, but you know, there’s kind of like the I guess an understanding of like what the problems are um when you’re an active duty service member and you’ve got, you know, you’re toggling a career and a family and, you know, whatever baggage you brought with you from the civilian world into, uh, you know, your home life in the army. And so, um, I just feel like it’s an opportunity, um, to kind of be a member of a team with you guys, um, that is really fulfilling for me and also help some people that can, you know, really use the help and maybe, uh, don’t have, uh, coping mechanisms that are going to be useful to them in the future or just useful to them in the present. um dealing with the day-to-day life of being in the military and as dynamic as the world is right now, it would be helpful to have some some coping mechanisms for sure. So, it’s just an opportunity to give back, I think, a little bit. Mhm. Yeah, I could tell. It’s interesting. Mike and I’s relationship came together. I really had no idea what he did. He had no idea what we did, but for some reason, we found ourselves in the same rooms together, whether it was Albuquerque last year or, you know, the meeting this year. And I think there’s just something about um some connectedness from a human perspective. And I think it goes back to like, you know, childhood. I think it has to go with growing up. I think it has to do with development and developmental stages when people were there and when they weren’t there. And um I think your experience, not only developmentally, but professionally um in the army aims to serve that when you have a great person your right and a great person your left, you can do really cool things. Yeah, for sure. For sure. Um, yeah. I think kind of us getting to this point is kind of been like the story of my life a little bit. You know, I’ve always kind of was like, who who do I need to hitch my wagon to, right? Who do I need to surround myself with? Um, and and when things were going really good for me, I hitched my wagon to the right people and kind of like, you know, surrounded people or surrounded myself with people that I knew were going to help me get to the future that I wanted, you know, or whether it was to be a good husband or to be a good father or to be um, you know, good at my job or just, you know, to be a good team player or just to be a good friend, you know. So, um I I’ve always kind of been on the lookout for that and I we’ve had conversations in the past like, you know, Chris, like I’d like to sit down and talk to you a little bit more, you know, and I I think that um I’ve always just kind of been aware of like who’s around me and like what’s my impression of like what are they about, you know? So, um that people relationship kind of thing has kind of always been something I’m attracted to, you know. And not only that, but something you’ve had to like develop. Like you talk about the leadership style in the army and how you’ve brought guys through and some of it’s like super compelling and interesting to me because it’s not it’s a really dynamic leadership style that clearly works in one of the largest companies in the entire world. And so what was it about and I think this will kind of draw into the passion where we sit today, but what was it about being a young man in the military that you felt like was going to be a good fit for you? And maybe you can take the viewers through, you know, what that young journey was like. Yeah. So, um born and raised in Houston, Texas, you know, um had a
lot of different experiences in my childhood. Some really, really bad, some really, really good. Um but always was kind of looking for that, I guess, father figure or or just that archetype of like what is a man, right? And so my dad was kind of like, you know, my biological father was um very troubled, had a lot of issues, a lot of substance abuse, a lot of uh there was some domestic violence and you know, just not a stable home life. Um and then my mom and dad separated and she met my uh stepfather, great guy, um but not like very forthcoming with his emotions, you know, told us he was proud of us, told us he loved us. Um but there was no hugs. there was no like, “Hey, let me sit you down and and put you on some game right now because you’re going to need this in the future.” Um because I just don’t know if he ever felt like that was his place. And so here I am, you know, fast forward to 2002. Um and I’m this troubled kid who’s like doing drugs and kind of don’t really know what I’m doing with my life. And 9/11 happens as a senior in high school. Um, and I’m kind of going through I’d moved out of my house and um was working and um still in school by the grace of God, you know, and then um the army recruiter called me one day out of the blue in like April. We had just invaded Afghanistan and he was like, “Hey, you ever thought about joining the army?” And I was like, “No, but I’m thinking about it now.” Um, and uh, I kind of just from that phone call, um, decided I was going to finish school, work that summer, and this is what I was going to do. Um, I always kind of felt like I was pulled to go do go somewhere and do something. Um, cuz I just knew that there was more to life than kind of what I was doing. And, uh, yeah, went went to basic training in August of 2002. um and found myself in Iraq not short not very long after that, you know. So, um but as far as your question goes, um I think that uh you know, as a young man in the military, I was really looking for like what is a man? Well, now you’re around all of these men and they come from all these different places, which I was not thinking about. M and I see like the ones that are like doing really good and they’ve got all of these schools and they’ve been to all these places and they’ve jumped out of planes and you know um it was always just like I want to do that. I want to do that. I want it was like fear of missing out like if I didn’t do it I was going to miss out on something some great opportunity even though I didn’t know what it was. Um but I think just a yearning to like know more. I was always kind of inquisitive and curious about people who did hard things. You know, I think that that’s a really sometimes undervalued and just your day-to-day dealings with people and walking through life. It’s like I always placed a really high importance on people who did like hard things like, “Oh man, that looks hard. That that is like really like how do how do you do that?” And then you realize it’s like an elephant that you have to eat. you just eat it one bite at a time and it, you know, sucks really hard and then you like you get used to that. You get inoculated to that. And so I think that’s kind of what it was just a a little bit of adventure seeking, you know, and then also kind of like wanting to see what’s out there, you know. So yeah, makes sense. And then and I’m sure every season as you progress through, you know, 22 23 year career is a new baseline. Yeah. And a new threshold of like what is actually possible, right? because the stories you’ve explained to me and I think that’s really what something really really cool that the army um and the armed forces can cultivate for you if you go in there is is like they can help this rapid growth and development process and they can create possibility where there’s impossibility and new foundations where it was I couldn’t even dream that big you know yeah I think um the cool thing at least my experience in the army is like people have done the math before you you know and it’s Yeah, there’s not always like these cookie cutter solutions to all of your problems, but there’s a lot of them, you know, and it’s like if you don’t have like a set of values or a set of beliefs or a leadership style or a set of principles to doing anything, somebody before you sat down, you know, a lot of them really smart guys and like did that homework and they were like, “Hey, man, these are the things that like make people tick, right? You’re going to get to a point in the army where you’re the one having to figure out what makes people tick and you’re the one that’s having to like show them that inspired leadership and you’re the going to be the one that has to figure out how to get these people to do this thing that they wouldn’t do on their own and then like get them to do it and do it well, you know? So, I think that that’s um super like it was just always very interesting to me that somebody sat down and like really broke down the kind of the human psyche at least for like a soldier. I was like, “Hey, we’ve we’ve done all this. We’ve experienced this. This is what worked for us and this is what didn’t.” Now, times change and, you know, people change and um you kind of got to figure out like, you know, what the leadership is for that season, like what your style is. But um you know, I think a lot of really good leadership, if you went and talked to those people like where’d you get your leadership style, they can probably point back to like the people that they saw do it really well and the people that they saw do it not very well. So I I would like to, you know, just give credit to all those great leaders before me that I would had the pleasure to serve with. Uh and all of it was just imitation, you know.
I love it though. Where did you know in your military career that you were going to move into like this more leadership role? When did you know like, hey, this is going to be a little this isn’t seasonal. It happens pretty fast, man. You know, like uh I was a young 19-year-old kid in torid Iraq. Um, and man, the world simplifies when you go to war, you know. Um, and uh, you know, you got to just make sure your weapon’s clean, make sure you’re right place, right time, right uniform, radios are working, trucks fill up with fuel, you know, I got all the stuff I need to to do our mission. And then, you know, at least my experience in the army is like your leadership potential is kind of based off of a lot of your potential to be a good subordinate. you know, like I was I I know I always look for that as a leader, it’s like, man, this guy just takes care of his business and he doesn’t have to be told to do a lot of things. Of course, you have to be taught to do these things, but once you’re taught, um, are you taking that like disciplined initiative to go out and do whatever it was you needed to do to make sure that we could go and, you know, fight the the nation’s enemies, you know. So, um, I think it happened pretty quick. Uh after that first deployment, um we came back, you know, 12-month deployment. Was there pretty much all of 2004. Um they were like, “Hey, you’re going to the sergeant board. We want you you have to study and go stand in front of all these first sergeants and the sergeant major.” And they kind of just drill you on all these questions. And it’s like, “Okay, well, you did what you had to do as a soldier. Now you’ve demonstrated that you are willing to like sit down and study regulation and all this stuff.” um and that you you want to be that you want to go to the next level to be a leader. So, you know, as a sergeant, you know. So, I think I I think I was a sergeant by the time I was 20 21 maybe, you know. So, um yeah, not very long. I was like in charge of a squad, you know, as like a 21 year old kid, you know. Yeah. People are juniors in college. Yeah. Out there. It’s like, all right. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And, you know, I didn’t think nothing of it. I thought that’s just how it is. You know, that’s I I knew that like this is what you’re supposed to do. You’re supposed to grow. You’re supposed to like learn how to do new things and then there’s going to be people coming in after you and you have to impart your your knowledge on them. It was never not ever something that I ever really questioned. Did you deploy twice before you were a sergeant? No, I deployed one time before I was a sergeant and then uh yeah, so um quick rundown of my like uh deployments kind of in that time it was like 2004 went to Torit. Um, I made sergeant like as soon as we got back. Um, and uh, it was a weird time. I I’m sure you remember like the stop loss stuff. So, like people were getting ready to get out of the army before we deployed the first time and they’re like, “Hey, you’re not getting out. You’re staying in. You got to deploy and then you can get out and get out. Then you can get out.” Yeah. Yeah. So, dudes are like thinking that they’re good. They’re going home. I don’t have to deploy. and it’s like, “Hey, you know, actually, I need you to go draw all of your gear again because you’ve already turned it in, but you’re staying.” And so, we went and did that deployment, come back. And uh everybody left. It was like this mass exodus. We had like a platoon of like 40some guys. It went down to seven people. And then all these new people started coming in and none of them had been anywhere. They were all like almost all brand new privates. It was like the ones that were seniors cuz I graduated 04. It was Mike people that were coming in. Yeah. So like um and nobody ever came to like take my job. Like a guy that was senior to me, a staff sergeant. So it was like, “Hey, uh Sie, Sergeant Sie, 20-year-old Sergeant Sie, you’re in charge of this these seven guys.” And then fast forward to 2006, a year and a half later, they’re like, “Oh yeah, still nobody’s came to to take my job. You’re going to take these seven dudes or eight dudes to war again in Baghdad, you know, during the surge.” So, um, talk about, uh, yeah, I had to be full of piss and vinegar like just to figure out how to do all that. And what kind of bond you building with those seven, eight guys? Like, it’s got to be I mean, we were tight. Um, so all of all of those guys, there was just a few of us. Uh, one, uh, really good friend of mine, uh, named Joe. He he was kind of like the senior of us but just barely, you know. He had he went to Kosobo and I didn’t go on that deployment because I wasn’t there yet. So like he had that one thing on me. 22. Yeah. He was like 20. He was maybe a year and a half older than me, you know, and we’re like we’re the senior dudes, you know. So but hey, you know that we were great because we were in our own minds hard as woodpecker lips and nobody could tell us different. Yeah. So it takes a little bit of that, man. For sure. Wow. So by the time you’re essentially most kids are getting their bachelor’s degree, you’re on your second deployment. Yeah, I’m on my second deployment and you know kicking indoors every night for 15 months and in Baghdad, Iraq, you know. Wow. So it was uh yeah, it was it definitely um lets you know what you’re made of pretty quickly, you know. Sebastian Junger, I was trying to think of it. Do you know it’s Sebastian Junger, right, Cove? Yes, sir. Okay. Sebastian Junger we had on the podcast. He’s an author. He’s not a military member. But he was interested on why people thrive in wartime settings and why they merely if they’re doing well survive when they get back. And so what he did is very invested in this project. He went and sat in the foxholes in Afghanistan with these like people like you guys with your seven people. Yeah. And he wrote about it and his book’s short and I read it and it’s what they because like I I think like the precipice like the pinnacle of the human experience is being seen, valued, and heard is what connects you in community, right? And I got to imagine what he said was like in those foxholes with those people, the person you’re right in your you don’t experience a deeper level of connection. You can’t. Yeah. I don’t think so. Like how would you, right? Yeah. I mean, you it’s like it’s like being married, right? You if you’re married for any like long duration of time, you see everything about that person. You see what you love about them. You see what you like about them. You see what you hate about them. You see what you don’t like about them, but you can tolerate, right? So, like, you know, you’re just you spend so much time with these guys and like number one, like you want to be successful, you want to do your job well, right? Um, but you also have these people that you’re like responsible for almost every aspect of their life. I need to make sure that they’re they’re fed, that they can do hygiene, that they can, you know, do all the maintenance on their equipment that they need to be. are they talking to their family, you know, are they getting the sleep that they needed to get, you know, and so, um, I didn’t know all of that stuff as a 22-year-old sergeant, you know, but I I knew I was lucky enough to have a really good platoon sergeant, platoon leader, and I was lucky enough to have just some good guys with me. Um, and we all kind of figured it out together. they probably figured it out and then told me what to do, you know, but but uh you know, like and then at the end of the day, like you don’t want to be sending people home in caskets, you know, that’s that’s heavy. Yeah. Um and it’s especially heavy when you’re very immature and you’re young, you know. Um, but it wasn’t something that was lost on us very quickly because uh especially that second deployment, we lost a lot of guys um in that unit. And um you know, we just we didn’t you didn’t want to be the one to mess it up. You didn’t want to be the bad egg. You didn’t want to be the the piece of crap that’s not pulling his weight. It was always kind of my motivation. It’s like, man, no, you got to do your job because there’s people that depend on you, you know, and so that was uh, you know, that was a very humbling experience even though if I didn’t realize how much at the time it was humbling me. Yeah. Just because of how young you were. Yeah. I had no perspective on anything. Now you look back like, whoa. Yeah. And I I I mean, we show up at peaks, you hear me, I’m like, “Today’s the Super Bowl.” And cuz there’s lives on the line. Yeah. But even more like you know like seriously like if I can’t rely on Peter I could be cuck today right you know and there’s a there’s a level of trust and a depth and a weight to relationship. Yeah. Um which is interesting because it’s you got to read that Sebastian Junger. You’ll love it. Yeah I’ll check it out. It’s good stuff for sure. Yeah. People seem to thrive in in what other people might think to be oh my gosh how do you do it? No way. There’s things I look back on all the time and I’m like, man, how do we pull that off? like, you know, like it’s I’m just amazed at like some of the things that we were capable of doing and and the these young men and and women too, you know, like some of the things that we were able to do, you know, like like how do you how do you get 22 year old 18 to 22 year old kids be like, “Hey, we’re going to go walk over that mountain and and we’ll be back in 3 days.” You know, like Yeah. Like, yeah, bring some water, bro. Yeah. Exactly. We’re going to walk 35 kilometers across this mountain range or this valley in Afghanistan, you know. It’s like I never would have dreamed that that I was even capable of doing that, you know. But literally, we’re going out 3 days on foot. Yeah. Yeah. That’s real. Sleep where we can sleep. Yeah. Yeah. We’ll we’ll go live in a goat pin or something for a day and then we’ll move on to the next one, you know? Yeah. Some people think they like the outdoors, you know? Yeah. Backpacking, dude. My wife always gives me a hard time. She’s like, “You want to go hike?” It’s like I’ve done a lot of hiking. You know what? I’m all hyped out, man. Not all hiked out, but but there I got to be in the mood for it for sure. Tell Tim, man. See, they drop me off, man. They pick me up two days later. Yeah. It’s crazy. I could be walking all over the place. Or they’re like, “Hey, we got to wait for these helicopters to come pick us up. We can’t We’re too far to walk back. We’re like in a very extended range of like artillery with these special rounds that can reach us.” Like, we have no We outstepped our support here. Get back on the line. Yeah, that’s funny, man. What a wild ride. So, both Afghanistan and Iraq. Yeah. Yeah. So, I did uh uh I went to uh Iraq twice. Um Iraq started kind of cooling off about 2008. Um and it eventually kind of wrapped up and then went to um RC East in Afghanistan, Gazny. Um kind of doing uh some like making sure that the the main highway through Afghanistan was kind of staying clear. Um, not at that. Everybody likes to blow it up. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that’s it was kind of like the the modus operandi at the of the highway. Yeah. Oh, damn. So, they’ll just put a huge house-sized hole in the middle of it and you’re like, “All right, now you got to figure this out. Get the tractor out of it.” Yeah. So, we would like, you know, do a lot of stuff in the villages around there just kind of trying to keep that secure. And um that was uh wasn’t too bad. And then, uh did that for like I think seven months or so. and then uh went and did some other assignments and kind of Afghanistan cooled off a little bit and then ended up back in Iraq in 2017 in Mosul um fighting ISIS, you know. So um yeah, four you four different combat deployments um mostly uh with uh the first infantry division and the 82nd Airborne Division. Um but you know like I look at the time I hated it but I look back on it I’m like man it was what a time to be alive you know like a lot of hurt but a lot of good too. Um and and it really builds character especially uh as you consider like those deployments like the first one in 2004 I was like living in a Saddam’s palace and then the last one in 2017 I’m like living in this bombed out building you know or like filling sandbags to just kind of keep overhead cover and stay safe you know and like right where everything was happening in Missoul. So um man that’s shifted a little bit here. Yeah for sure. Like what and you’re older and more mature and wise to everything. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think uh the the older and more mature and wiser I got, I think the the more scared I got, you know, something about that naivity that’s like Yeah. You know, like if if you how can you be scared of something you don’t know you’re supposed to be scared of it, you know? So, um, one of my big things, and you’ve heard me say it, is, and it’d be interesting if somehow Peaks and the mission can reach this deep, but I’ve always wondered why we don’t roll out the red carpet, especially for folks coming back from war times, you know, like you get off the plane, you get 30 days off, you get a nice spa retreat, some good therapy, some PE, maybe it’s an Ibagane, maybe It’s one of these things that we know are like helping people get through this because one of the saddest things I see like if they if they make it to the chair you’re sitting in all is well that ends well, right? But not a lot of people make it to the chair you’re sitting in. Yeah. I mean I think there’s still a lot of combat vets especially like us Giwa kids. It’s kind of the the the term that’s getting thrown around now. Um there’s still a lot of guys out there that are productive but there’s a lot of guys who are not. And um I I couldn’t tell you why I think people don’t like kind of roll out the red carpet per se for combat bets is like I think there’s still a little bit of a stigma. Um it’s almost like think about Memorial Day, right? You want to tell people like, “Hey, happy Memorial Day.” Like this is we should we should celebrate this day. But how do you celebrate something that’s sad? How do you celebrate something that is has so much grief and loss attached to it? Um, people tell me all the time, “Thank you.” You know, and and they were when we were coming home. Um, but it’s I I don’t really know how to put my thumb on like what it is that that kind of keeps us from um kind of like being like putting those guys on a pedestal. Not that I necessarily think they always should be, but um it’s it’s it’s almost like a dirty little secret like, “Hey, I’m proud of you, but man, like bore sucks, you know, like this is all of this is bad, you know, and and for whatever reason, we’re over there for reasons you agree with or you disagree with, but um and then that at the end of the day, you know, it comes down a lot of times to, you know, dollars too, you know, But there are a lot of people out there who did a lot of great things for their country and did a lot of great things for the people to the left and right of them that are really really really struggling. Right. Yeah. And that’s that’s my thing is it was one of the saddest things to see when I came to Colorado Springs and we weren’t in network with Triare Tri West is that somebody could go work on a military installation and then get Blue Cross Blue Shield Federal cover any treatment program in the United States and here our service members active and otherwise families independents. Yeah. Don’t have a space to call home like that. But and so there’s just such a division there. And so I’m starting to see at least through Triare some little bit more access to care. There’s one program I’ve told you about. It’s been a network with Tryare forever and it’s one of I think one of the greatest programs in the country, right? And it’s uh the Meadows in Wickerberg, Arizona. So, but yeah, I just think you know, you’ve talked about it before. We have a huge investment um in these men and women often times millions of dollars, right? um invested and for good reason. I just wonder if we invested a fraction of that in the afterare or the aftermath, you know. Yeah. I can tell you right now like the military uh and the government doesn’t always do good with like the follow through on things. Like the the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Like there’s usually good intentions behind anything at like the the operational level in the army. It’s like, hey, we’re going to do this thing. We’re going to do this thing. We’re going to make sure we take care of you. Mhm. Well, it’s like you get the thing done and then dollars dry up and then you know there’s like you know leadership change or there’s um you know a new party has taken over an office and agendas change quickly, right? And so um yeah, it does. It goes back and forth. I saw it go back and forth a couple of times just in my 22 years. Um but you know it’s I I think um it it’s just really just not the hot plate item, you know. Um, and and that’s really unfortunate cuz there’s a lot of people who probably could still be very productive members of society and take the those leadership lessons that they learned from those mentors to the left and right and all those good people and apply it to their business dealings or their home life or just their dayto-day interactions with people. um and they can’t because they are hung up with substance abuse or they’re hung up with PTSD and just, you know, emotional regulation. So, um it is a fortunate thing that I think happens. Um and it it definitely is something that, you know, we could be doing better as a nation, you know. Yeah. I wonder I’m I’m sure they’re beginning to do more of a costbenefit analysis on it. Yeah. Long term. Yeah. And it could for me it’s almost and I don’t you tell me but like it almost seems like just redefining when the mission’s complete you know some term or another. I think you know I think for guys like me who had multiple combat deployments seen a lot of you know death and destruction. I don’t think you you ever get past that. I think it’s something that you just get comfortable living with. You know it’s like a monster that lives in your room. He’s not going to do anything to you or if you pay him the correct attention. But the minute you stop paying attention to him and stop feeding him in the way he he needs to be fed to keep him docile and quiet, he shows up. Yep. You know, so Yeah. And what you mean by that is like showing up, doing hard things, getting some sun on your face, doing some jiu-jitsu, lifting some weights, doing things you don’t want to do, moving through uncomfortability, which is that’s the RX, but man, for it’s just really difficult for some people to get there. Getting started and then keeping it going. Once you do, I’m a living testament to that. like if I’m not doing, you know, those hard things or working out or or, you know, you know, challenging myself, whether it’s my mind or my body, I’m not the best version of me. So, um, I’m blessed enough and lucky enough that I realize that, you know, like I understand that there are thing things I have to do for me to be the best version of myself. Mhm. There are so many guys that never got to that point, you know, that like like I did all this stuff in the army and then like I got out and you know the economy was bad when the wars were slowing down, you know, 2009, 10, 11, 12. Um, and then you’re stuck and you’ve developed all these little things that are just hanging off of you. Um, and you don’t have any way to kind of put it away and get on with your life, you know. Yeah. And then then the new baseline becomes really difficult. Yeah. Foundation. Yeah. Because this is the new normal is like just grinning and bearing, you know, every day. And that that’s hard. And that I hate that for people. It’s like you you gave so much of yourself, whether it be physically or mentally. Um, and now you’re just this empty shell and you’re just you have no purpose and you’re not um living a fulfilled life when I think you should if you go to war as a young man, you come back, you know, not a whole lot of reasons better than to like live a fulfilled life and be like, “Hey, I made it through all of that.” Yeah. So, but we lose perspective on that. I know, man. And I really want like when you talk about this, like I almost think, well, insurance wouldn’t pay for it. Yeah. but just like a retreat for like military service members. I also I always think of like uh Cameron Haynes and the work those guys do with Ubermen and the military and just getting they’ll carry a stone up a mountain. Yeah. Sounds crazy, man. But like the bonds that are formed, the um resilience that’s obtained, the connectedness that’s in it’s like it’s spiritual, man. It’s like church. Yeah. Shared suffering, right? Shared suffering is a is a I Yeah, that’s the So good. That’s why you see people that have been, you know, together like married for a long time and they’ve really been through it. They’re just so calm. They’re like, “Yeah, whatever.” Shared suffering is like I don’t think you can be inoculated to get something better than that. But, you know, the trade-off is that like if you’ve done a lot of shared suffering with somebody, you got to continue that community um once you get out of the military. I was, you know, luckily smart enough to realize that like for me that was like jiu-jitsu, you know, like I knew I was like, okay, I had to get out fast. Ended up having to have my neck surgery. Got medically retired. Um, and uh I was like, I’m going to need somebody. I’m going to need some form of dudes around me to like just keep me sane, you know? Um, and he, you know what, it’s still hard to talk to him. It’s still hard to be like, “Hey man, I need help.” Hey man, how are you doing? Yeah, I’m not doing great. Yeah, good, man. Yeah, you know, yeah, it can be tough, man. But then when you do it, it’s uh it’s a very cool thing. And I think even more so I’ I’ve always said like community for me is everything. But going back to Sebastian Junger’s work and your experience, it’s like, man, can I just get like I actually really really need a great person on my right, great person on my left. Yeah. Like it’s actually non-negotiable, especially in from what you’re telling me with combat vets. Like that’s that’s that’s at the very least what is necessary for thriving for somebody who has been through that type of intensity. Yeah, for sure. For sure. That’s basine. Yeah. And you know, it’s like you know the whether it’s you’re doing something hard together or you experience loss together or you do something really good together. Um I think when you’re kind of in the military and you’re deploying and going to war, um the whole time you’re just like I just want some privacy. I want some peace. I want to be away from these dudes. And then you look, you know, fast forward 10 years in the future and you’re not in the military anymore. You’re like, man, I wish I I miss that, you know, like the brotherhood. And and you know, you might not even like all the dudes in your unit, but they’re still there. They’re still doing the same crap you are, you know? Um, and I that’s a really hard thing to find like in civilian society in America is like, hey, these are the boys. The boys ain’t changing. boys ain’t going nowhere, you know? So, um, that’s what I was really that’s why I love this recovery process so much and feel like I was just like extraordinarily blessed and able to turn pain into purpose at like a really young age is like, dude, like I felt like I was fighting for my life. Yeah. I was either going to die in a prison cell or somewhere out in the street doing something stupid, some high-risisk behavior. And then you get these other guys very similar like in a way like we’re going into aa we’re going into this thing as 20 year olds. We’re not going to drink anymore. Yeah. We’re not going to do drugs. We’re going to [  ] do it together. And then we’re going to meet at the gym in the evening and [  ] just turn up the music. Yeah. You know what I mean? And then you do this with these people for like 5 6 7 10 14 13. Mhm. and you’re like, I I just feel so grateful that that that actually was the ethos of which recovery has to go through is this connection thing. But as a young kid, if you don’t go to war, if you don’t you’re not fighting for your life for an opiate addiction, like you don’t you don’t see that. Yeah. I think that’s a I that’s a really great segue into kind of like um I think a big thing for military members especially uh guys with combat trauma and stress is like you know we boosted together hard you know when in our off time like we worked hard and we played hard and then like you start looking for that camaraderie and that community again and you’re not in the military anymore and you’re like oh well I used to you know we go party hard with the boys well now you don’t have those same boys those boys don’t have the same experience and then you find yourself partying hard by yourself because that’s the only thing you have left from that, you know, and you’re, you know, a lot of people just can’t really figure that out. It’s like I’m doing all this because I’m looking for a feeling um that I had when I had this community and now I don’t have this community anymore and I’m selfisolating and I’m abusing substances or whatever your vice is, you know. Um and I that that’s I think a real problem. Um I a lot of my friends that I’ve talked to, they’re retired or or ETS in their term of service out of the military. A lot of them went through that, you know. Um I just recently went and saw a bunch of guys. I went to combat with uh not too long ago in February, we um good good friend of mine. He was uh one of my soldiers um passed away on a motorcycle wreck. And I we were just kind of catching up, eating dinner and stuff. They’re like, “Yeah, kind of went off the deep end, went on like a two-year bender, you know, and, you know, kind of just now pulling myself up by the bootstraps.” And it’s like, why do we let it get that far? Like the it’s 2026. I can pick up the phone, call anybody, you know, so a little bit of the onus is on us, too. Um, but it’s it’s a real thing, man. It’s hard to explain. It’s hard to explain that feeling of I’ve lost something, but I don’t know what I lost and I don’t know how to communicate it, you know, and it’s it’s companionship. Yep. I think so. I think so, too. I mean, pretty clearly, even just from hanging out with you and the other vets and combat vets have had the opportunity to check in with. And it’s interesting, too, because I’ve been doing this work a long time, and I’m not able to make the impact in that community that you’re able to make. Yeah. And which I think is really, really special. And that’s why I’m so excited. He’s going to go sneak me on to Fort Carson later. Um, but we’re going on Fort Carson here next week, man. We got, you know, we’re sitting down with people and I think you have a real opportunity with the support of Peaks behind you, frankly, with the programs they defi describe that they work with to do something incredibly impactful, not only in Fort Carson, but in Colorado Springs and potentially, you know, the region, the world, make big impacts. Right. Super excited about that, too. Um, you know, I’m just I understand kind of the problems that they have as far as like being a leader in those units down there. And, you know, there’s never enough providers. There’s always too many patients that are coming in. Um, and I think that, uh, Peaks, uh, and the work that we can do here is really going to mesh with kind of where I think the Army’s going with, um, you know, like mental health and substance use like help is not a cookie cutter solution, right? The army is always like, “Hey, we’re going to give you the onesizefits solution.” Um, and for a lot of people, what they’re providing on Fort Carson is probably more than enough, right? But there are times when when um maybe there is a wait or maybe there is uh somebody does need some acute care or whatever the case may be. Um and um Fort Carson can’t provide that. I think we can help fill those gaps. Um especially being here in the community. Um, I think that that’s very important. Um, I know that I wish when I retired that I would have been a little more preemptive and preparing myself for dealing with regular civilian life problems. You know, a lot of times the solution, or at least my solution, the army was like, “Hey, just walk in, dominate the room. If you’re in charge, be in charge.” You know, that doesn’t work all the time out here. Out here, you know, like dang, man. Like, bro, who is this guy and who does he think he is? You know? Yeah, for sure. Um, but you know, that’s a real thing. Um, and you know, like people think that you know, you you leave a bad home environment from wherever you are, you know, XYZ USA. And it’s like your problems don’t leave you just because you left your home and joined the army. Like a lot of those problems are going to follow you. So, you know, wherever you go, there you are. Yeah. Exactly. So, that’s what they say. I was I got sober. I was like, “Well, I think I’m just going to move to Kentucky.” Yeah. And they’re like, “Will you still be looking at yourself in the mirror?” I’m like, “Damn.” Yeah. Really? Yeah. Yeah. If kids were sitting at MAPS in their city and they were like, “Hey, we’re going to You got a lot of childhood trauma.” All these dudes have childhood trauma, too. They’ll be like, “No, I don’t think I want to do that.” But I always say, “We’re not pulling silver spoons out of people’s mouth to put them in the military.” Yeah, for sure. So, like you get you get around up a lot of people like you, a lot of people who grew up like you, a lot of people who have the same problems you had. And then what do you guys do? Y’all do the same thing that y’all were doing when you were, you know, back home. Maybe you’re not doing drugs, but you’re making up for it with the drinking and and partying and staying out late and whatever, you know. So, um I I do think that we can make a lot of uh impact in that community. And, you know, like we need it as a country. We need it. We need healthy people. um doing that job, you know, we can’t afford to have people who are halfcocked, you know, so to say. Yeah. And I love your approach, too, cuz you obviously the active service members is a huge passion of yours, but you know, you have a family. You had kids in the military. Yeah. All of them. Yeah. You know, and so having proper support and good support, like when vets walk in our program, they’re like, “This is really nice.” Like, “Dude, you deserve nothing less.” Yeah. Like, bro, you deserve a nice place to figure out your things, you know? Yeah. And where you can just be you and people are just going to accept you for you. Not what you are, not what your rank says or, you know, what uniform you’re wearing or what silly hat you’re wearing, you know? It’s like just a place where you don’t have to focus on anything but you. Um, and I think that’s important. And and you know, like we always talk about in the army is like the servant leadership. Servant leadership, intrusive leadership. Well, you can go so far down that rabbit hole that you’re not serving yourself like you need to. Um, and then, you know, you you don’t have any people that you need to serve and be their leader anymore and uh your family are not in the army and then you have this giant hole in you where you didn’t take care of yourself. Um, and you didn’t really kind of put the things in order that you needed to to continue your life. Um, and that’s hard, man. It’s and it’s not an easy problem to fix. How do you fix 22 years of doing one thing this thing one way? Yeah. You know, that’s two decades. That’s wild. And to show up there not as a master sergeant. Yeah. But and I’ve only done treatment and been like CEO, president guy. Like nothing on that level where like like But I used to have to go home and be like, “Dude, shut it off.” Like that you’re not a boss. These aren’t your employees. They’re not your boys. Like this your [  ] family. Yeah. And so I’d have to do this breathing thing be like, “Dude, disconnect from whatever you think you’re doing right now cuz they can’t handle this type energy.” Yeah. You know, I bet it’s even harder on your side. Well, that’s what I did. So, I always made sure that I changed clothes before I came home. I would not like wear my uniform home. I wouldn’t just get in the car and drive home. It’s like, okay, I’m taking off the monkey suit. I’m going put it away. Now, Mike’s here. Well, I didn’t have a uniform anymore. And there was this like person in me, you know, where do you put him, you know, and where does he go? And um so it’s it can be very hard to kind of know who you are and and like when I say know who you are, like who is Mike Sullie, you know? Um because you’re as much as I used to say it. I was like, “Oh, the army is not my identity.” Well, yeah. Yeah, bro. It was. You were in the army longer than you were a civilian. Shut up. Yeah, you were. Yeah, you were. Yeah. So, exactly, man. That’s That’s cool. Yeah. Because at 42 I’ve been or at 44 I’ve been sober longer than h longer than half my life. Exactly. But you were in longer than half your life. Yeah. I mean that’s insane. Yeah, it is. It is insane. And you don’t you think it’s not a thing until it is. And and we don’t always get to choose the things in our life that are actually things, you know. So, um I I just really feel like um I’m kind of being drawn towards like this work, you know. I feel like my life is like that a lot of times. a recruiter calls me out of the blue. Um I know you for 4 years. I’m like, you know, was really struggling. I’m like, “Hey, Chris, we should get coffee sometime.” I don’t think we ever did get that coffee, but um and then you’re like, “Hey, we’re talking about doing this thing. I want you to come in and talk.” And it’s like, well, sometimes there’s just some sort of divine intervention, dude. And you know, on that day, I’ve told you like I’m like, “What is this meeting about?” Yeah. Like they’re like Matt and Mike and DC are up front. And like and I was sitting there and I’m like thinking maybe there’s an agenda. DC and Matt don’t schedule meetings where there’s not like [  ] going on. And then it dawns on me like no we’re just doing this thing. And then it dawn I’m like wait a minute Mike’s a new military liaison. I’m like it’s going down baby. I’m like holy [ __ ] You know it’s like perfect timing. If nothing else I can at least speak the language. That’s good. Yeah. I’m really excited to uh not only have that meeting, but really begin to have a community impact for the people that serve this country, their family members, and really have a more dynamic and more of a custom fit approach. Yeah. To active service members and their families. And I think that’s what we’re going to be able to cultivate um through your willingness and and of course the relationships that you already have is like, you know, we want to go in there and really say like not only how can we fill a gap, but like what do you need long term? how can we grow this? How can we make it easier? How can we create better soldiers, family members, um, and the like. So, I’m I’m really excited about the opportunity that we have in front of us. Yeah, I’m I’m super excited. like what I if I could like be king for a day and it’s like I’m going to make this thing happen. It’s like I I feel like there’s so many men out there who serve their country um and women too um that they have all of this potential and lessons learned and like how to like be productive and like be productive with a as a team. um that if we can help these people who have all these lessons learned and we can put them out there in the community, they can have a huge impact on on just the younger generation, you know, and I I would hate to see just all of that knowledge and just wisdom, you know, really it’s just wisdom um just die with them, you know, because that’s how wisdom dies, you know. So, um, I think it’s a really good opportunity for for me to give back and hopefully help enough people and inspire enough people for them to want to get out and give back, too. Whether that’s youth sports or volunteering and um, you just joining corporate America, you know, like I think that that is so overlooked. It’s like, all right, I’ve done this at the highest stakes. what we’re dealing with right now in corporate America. This is not life or death. We can figure this out. Just maybe that level of just confidence like we can we can get to yes on this. You know, there’s hundreds thousands of guys out there that are like wired that way, but because they can’t get past their own issues and trauma, um, grief and loss and stuff like that that they get stuck and they don’t get to help other people because they need help themselves. Mhm. Yeah, man. It’s going to be uh I’m I’m really excited. It’s been all these years. I mean, we were never in network with TriRiCare, Tri West, looking to move into the VA uh situation as well and and just kind of really move through it. You know, it’s it’s cool when they describe the not the companies, but the resources that they’ve been working with over the years and and why I think Peaks Recovery presents like maybe just a little bit of a differentiator, you know, a little bit different of an opportunity, a more s sophisticated, thoughtful, curious way to approach like helping service members. And we approach it from like, well, we don’t know. You tell us what you need. Yeah. What do you need? Which is wildly insightful. It is. you know, it’s like, how do I get my ego out of the way of this so I can actually help you? It’s like, oh, I’m I’m Mike and this is what I can do. It’s like, well, hey, what do you need me to do? All right, I’m going to figure this out. You know, that’s the probably the most, you know, emotionally intelligent thing we can do. Um, and and I think that people that need help, uh, especially in the military, they want that. They want I want you to see me as a person. You know, my last name is on here for a reason. It’s who I am. It’s not what I do. is who I am. That’s the only thing on this entire uniform that is me, right? Um so I think that that is like going to be a breath of fresh air for people that are, you know, potentially coming to see us. Um and and I just being around the campus and going through some of the you know group sessions and individual sessions and kind of seeing how Peaks works like I think that that is going to be a a strength for Peaks helping out service members and their families. Absolutely. And I love what you were talking about too is like dude my favorite employees are like when when act when combat vets and active service like when they get it right and they come into the like they’re the best. Yeah, like Chris in our nursing department, like get out of here. Like he’s the best. Why? Well, he he figured out a way to get in that seat to take what he learned in the military, cultivate it, and use it for something good and had great people to his right and to his left. And so, I love that what you’re talking about is like potentially doing job fairs up there is like for nursing and therapists and this and PhDs and like, hey, man, because you know, I think if you transition from a military career into some sort of behavioral health, it will inform the foundation connectivity you need to do to do your own thing. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And I think like, oh, and by the way, you don’t have to do this in an austere environment, right? This is great. You don’t have to do this in a tent in the middle of somewhere or some airport. It’s climate controlled and everything. Yeah. Yeah. You don’t have to We’re not going to make you come in at 6:30 in the morning and do PT that you may or may not want to do. Do that. Yeah. Yeah. It’s a It’s a great opportunity. Um I’m so looking forward to kind of just getting down in the weeds and just talking to people, you know? I just I like uh I like relating to people and I like hearing who they are and where they’ve been and what have you done and oh man that’s cool. You were there at that thing, you know. Um and and it kind of like just that shared experience of just being in the military for that long and doing that many deployments. I think it really resonates with people. You’re like, “Okay, you hear me. You understand?” you know, and and being in the army is not they think it’s like full metal jacket, stand up straight, you know, private pile. It’s not that, you know, it’s there is some of that. Um, and that’s that’s definitely part of it, but you know, like just the day-to-day marathon of being like a guy in the military, like it don’t stop and it’s going to keep going with or without you, right? And if you give everything to the military, it will take everything you will give and it will give you nothing back but memories and in a DD214, you know. So like what you what you get back from the military, it’s already given you, you know, you just got to figure out how to be resourceful with all of that information and knowledge and experience and apply that into things that are practical um after your career career in the military. Yeah. you know, and and not everybody is that insightful, you know, there’s not. And so, um, if we can help in that facet and like just help people live like productive and generally happy lives, dude, that you deserve that, you know, you deserve it for sure. Everybody deserves that. You know, nobody deserves to just be miserable and like, you know, dragging around this, you know, proverbial rucksack, you know, for the rest of their life. I there’s you see them all the time. you pass by them on 25 every day and they’re just like they don’t know what to do with all this baggage. It’s like you can do something with it. You just got to look at it differently. Yeah. Well stated. Yeah. Yeah. Well stated. I was talking I was on a call this morning and I said somebody’s asking well how’s the military? I said you know this is going to be a new vertical for us but frankly man we’re going to check back in with Mike here in like 3 to 6 months. We might have an entirely new program built out of this. more will be revealed, man. Trust the process. Grateful to have you here. Thanks for coming on the show. Thanks for all you do in the community. Four Peaks. Um, looking forward to a lot of one days at a time. Hey, thank you for thinking I’m smart enough to even do this. Let’s go, baby. Yeah. Appreciate you, Mike. All right, my beautiful people. Until next time. If I didn’t say it on the front end, they’ll introduce me with a little thing that says Chris Burns, president, founder. Have a beautiful day. Don’t forget to get outside and look at Pikes.
Heat. Hey, Heat.