Episode 148

[Music] Hey everybody and welcome to another amazing and exciting episode of Finding Peaks. Yours truly, President and founder, Christopher Michael Burns. Grateful to be making everybody’s acquaintance today. We have a very special show on hand. We are talking about a topic that’s near and dear to a lot of people’s heart. a lot of people are walking through and experiencing both in family systems and interpersonally and that is screen addiction. Um we’re finding that there’s quite a few people that are searching that on Google and are trying to find resources and Peaks Recovery is grateful to be one of those resources today. I am joined today by Dr. Marissa Prince. Thank you for coming on the show. She is our clinical director and her co-pilot today, Alyssa Kerry, licensed addiction counselor, one of our badass therapists. Don’t bleep that out. Let’s go. Welcome to the show, ladies. Yeah, thanks for having us. How do you guys feel about screen addiction? When we talk about screen addiction, I know at peaks recovery right now when folks check into programming, they get an iPad, we curate their iPad for them, put some things on there because this is one of those things that kind of been calling lately like a primal issue, right? We can’t get rid of screens entirely. We can’t get rid of food entirely, so on and so forth. And so I guess my first question today is like how does screen addiction come up? Where does it start? Start with you Dr. Prince. Um loneliness oftent times is when we at least I would see it. Um it’s I have became so lonely and my only social outlet is behind this screen or my only sense of worth is often behind this screen. Do you find that through that loneliness is it oftentimes people that are experiencing depression, anxiety? Is it what do you think? That’s a really good question because um directionally we don’t exactly know the relationship with screen time and we don’t have really really good research on whether or not someone that is more prone to depression anxiety is more likely to use more screen time versus someone using more screen time is more likely to develop these symptoms of depression and anxiety. Um, so it’s really actually kind of hard and it’s going to show up differently in different people as far as like yeah, what’s contributing to what and like where is the causal factor and where is this starting. Mhm. Um but yeah, loneliness is a big thing and also identity is a big thing too because um these screens allow us to kind of curate and be a person on the internet in a way that maybe we’re not able to show up in our actual lives or feel like we’re not adequate enough to or have access to the way that we want to display ourselves. Um, so it it’s a very very um complex thing that we have this relationship with screens, we have this relationship with social media and the internet and the ways that we show up in those spaces. Yeah, that’s a really interesting point that you brought up. I had never thought about. But is it kind of like we we sit down with these screens that are kind of a natural part of our life. And as we go more inward here, we disconnect externally, decreasing the community and the stimulus from the community and the connection and kind of turning inward instead of extending ourselves out. And that can create the depression because at least in my experience with recovery, as long as I have a great recovering person on my right and a great recovering person on my left, I feel really good. Yeah. But when I’m isolated, disconnected, and potentially all alone, this feels begins to feel a lot better. So that that makes a lot of sense. Yeah. I think it’s good to mention too how, you know, we give people iPads when they come into Peaks, but we take away their cell phone. Um, so their cell phone is something that they’re not using throughout treatment. So they don’t have that sort of connection to the outside world in that way. And a lot of people get really distressed at first about that. Absolutely. And that’s kind of where you can kind of key in on their relationship with that device of like how distressed are they when you remove that device that’s indicative of maybe a maladaptive relationship with a cell phone. Um where some people it’s like yeah take it. Sure. Yeah. They enjoy that. I don’t want this. Yeah. Um and so they’ve actually done studies very recently uh with kids on this. Um there was a there was a study published literally last week where it’s a longitudinal study too. So it took four years for them to do this study and it just got published. So timeliness is your thing maybe by accident. But they found that um there’s a difference between screen time and like maladaptive screen time. So addictive types of screen time are different from just screen time because most Americans will spend 8 to 11 hours on a screen a day, especially depending on what they do for work. So if you’re working, you’re an accountant, you’re crunching numbers, you’re looking at a computer, that’s screen time, but it’s productive versus if you’re scrolling on TikTok for 11 hours a day, um that’s very problematic. But this study with children actually identified that addictive tracks of screen time have like kind of like three key features which are compulsive use. So that that urge to just grab the screen and have to use it. Um distress when it’s taken away. So distress when you don’t have access to it. And the third thing is escaping my mind right now because I don’t have my phone to look at it. I’m surprised you remembered those first two. That was pretty good. I’m sure it’ll come to you. It will come to me. Yeah. It reminds me of a time we had back in 20 16, we had a a death in our extended care program. And I remember um I got a call and I needed to answer that call. And from that moment forward, it must have been years, probably close to the pandemic, where if I left my phone, I could be 45 minutes away from the house and I would have to go back. It was kind of this obsessivempulsive thing because I’m like, if I miss that call, things are really, really bad and I don’t ever want to miss that call and I can’t miss any calls. So, I had this like glued to my hip. Would that be considered, do you think, because of that trauma or because of that intensity? Do you think that would be considered a maladaptive? I think it depends on how long that behavior lasts and the amount of distress it causes you. Mh. Mhm. Um cuz like with anything with any form of like behavior that is like maladaptive versus adaptive, uh realistically the first criteria for like disordered behavior is going to be that it’s causing you distress or dysfunction in like other areas of your life. So, um I can use my cell phone all the time and spend all the time plugged in. Uh, and if I’m not distressed about that, if it’s not causing me to lose access to things, if it’s not causing any sort of dysfunction in my life, I mean, that’s adaptive for me. I’m not distressed, I’m not upset, um, I’m doing great. Uh, if I’m recognizing that I’m feeling extremely sad, extremely lonely, extremely upset every time I put down the phone after I scrolled on it for way longer than I intended to use it, that’s the third thing. There it is. There it is. Um it’s it’s using it longer than you intended to and feeling unable to stop. Um so if I’m I’m falling into that cycle of like, man, I don’t want to be scrolling on my Instagram anymore and I’m like aware of that, but I’m just going to keep doing it. Like that’s problematic because now it is causing distance from me and my actual values and the way that I want to be spending my time. Yeah. No, that makes a lot of sense, too. It it seems like very obscure with respect to how each individual approaches their recovery process with screen addiction as well. It’s not it’s more like process addiction where we kind of you know I was talking about it last week with Dr. Prince is like in the 12step way of things with um sex addicts anonymous or relationships anonymous they form what’s called bottomline behaviors and they each person has different bottomline behaviors and it’s different for everybody. Jumping on the phone for one person and getting on Instagram may be a lapse and for another person it might not be. And so how do we begin with the individuals that come into care kind of like defining that for them? What is a important from a foundational perspective to ensure that we have for individuals that are walking through this screen addiction? Yeah, absolutely. So we do have assessments that are uploaded into our EMR system and therapists do utilize these um when needed for screen addiction. And so that’s extremely important and it’s person specific as well. If they are saying I am spending 12 hours a day, I’m unable to feed myself. I’m unable to bathe. Um I’m unable to function as an adult going to work. Um that is where we will start to address that. Mhm. I I love that too because I think at least for me, you know, when I was checking in years ago for substance use disorder, I’m like, I have a life sentence of not using my favorite coping mechanism. Life is going to be horrid. But in this regard, and I think it’s important to mention, and we’ve kind of already mentioned it, it’s like it’s not about taking away, it’s about utilizing it appropriately so it doesn’t take away from you, which I think is a really cool way to approach recovery in general, right? It’s not good or bad, right? Well, I think the important thing to recognize too is that process addictions, especially one like this, are very different from a substance use disorder in that the way that we need to treat it is to moderate. We we can’t really do a full abst abstinence from screens and still have like a functional modern society life. I mean, I guess you could go to some island and start growing your own food and like be really offrid. Uh it’s just not really realistic for a lot of people. Um, and so I think like when I think about it, I think of it more like kind of like a binge eating disorder where it’s like a person needs food. Like they need to be able to engage with this activity, but they need to be able to moderate it. Like they need to have a healthier relationship with technology in the same way that they need a healthier relationship with food if they’re binge eating. Yeah. Um, do you guys find too, and I know we we don’t give our cell phones back until folks are out of residential level of care, but do you ever see the the reverse side of it where people come in with like a substance related disorder, you know, they put that to rest for a little bit and then all of the sudden they’re stuck on these screens or they’re engaged in relationships that are high risk. Do you guys see that a lot? Oh, absolutely. It’s replacement behaviors. So we will often when we do not have access to like you said your maladaptive coping skill, you no longer have a access to fentanyl, you will replace that behavior with pornography. You will replace that with food, anything that will give you that dopamine rush and give you comfort. And so process addictions and um substance use, we see that relationship going back and forth. Yeah, I’ve seen it a lot. Not necessarily screen addiction, but when I was in the 12step groups, you know, a lot of times people would be 25 years sober and we’re sitting there, we’re like, “Yeah, but we’re all struggling with so many other things right now.” And yeah, we got the sobriety cap on and it looks good. But I like this idea of moderation. I like this and I kind of like the idea of it with and I know I’m going to kind of take a reach here, but like even with substance use disorder, I think it’s tough to come in and tell somebody never use drugs again, right? It’s very difficult to do that. And I don’t think it’s advantageous to the recovery process, which is relational and like walking with people. Mhm. So I I love that you guys have your eyes on that. I’ve seen it. One of my questions actually is in regards to my kids, in regards to youth in general per the study, why is it that when they go into the iPad and they spend an hour on the iPad, they’re playing games with friends, why do they leave that disconnected, disgruntled, a little bit anxious, not present? So the the rebound from these screens, whether it’s an addiction or not, which I don’t they have pretty healthy habits, but even coming off of a 45m minute or an hour session on the iPad, they’re like different humans. We got to like settle before we go to the next thing because if we just go right into the next thing, it’s like, guys, what’s going on here? We got Cheetos flying everywhere. There’s, you know, it’s a mess. How does what is going on there for a young person? I think it kind of depends what they’re doing. Um, you know, there’s a difference between using games and there’s a difference between scrolling on social media. Um, the one I’m more familiar with is social media, though, just because I kind of equate it to maybe you’re sitting at your house and you’re trying to relax and every five minutes, actually, let’s shorten that. Every 30 seconds, someone different is knocking at your door and telling you their idea. That’s a great example. And they’re coming in and they’re like, “Hey, I want you to hear about this thing.” It might actually upset you because it doesn’t align with your values at all. But I actually want you to be upset about it, so you should probably get really upset. I’m actually done talking about that now, but like my friend over there, he’s actually gonna come in in a minute, too. And he’s going to tell you about something else that’s really upsetting. Um, and then 30 seconds from then, someone else is going to come in with something maybe more upsetting. Um, actually, then we’re going to show you a puppy. Jeez. That way you keep going. You’re gonna keep going. Um, because you want that puppy and I am a dopamine slot machine. So, you’re just kind of going to ring me over and over again until you get a puppy again. Mhm. But people just do that and they don’t realize they’re inviting this in. Like you’re inviting in all of these ways that like these algorithms are just deciding what’s going to upset you and what’s going to keep you paying attention longer, right? Um and it’s, you know, it’s a little bit different with games though because games is like they make them just hard enough that it’s challenging but not so easy that you ever get to really feel accomplished. Is that true? Jeez. Yeah. That’s why I don’t play games. I just don’t I just think they’re boring. That’s very interesting. We had a client might have been a couple years ago. Um it was no maybe it was a few years ago in the pandemic and obviously a lot of communities were disconnected. You know, these social things that we do um were abysmal and not opportunistic for folks. And so I remember we had a client check in um who built this whole community through these like avatar profiles and they would go in and they they never met any of the individuals personally but they would go in and they would get to curate what they look like and they all sit on a couch and they would all talk and I had never met anybody prior to that who was so convicted about that community and it sounded like at least with his presentation that there was a benefit to that as well. Is there because I think some parents, you know, maybe from my generation or the generations past, they’re like, there is no community. There’s nothing good coming out of that. Can there potentially be a good community online in those avatar settings? And can it be fruitful if used appropriately? Yes. The answer is yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um there there’s always some good. Um, but what can happen is that that is so desirable and it’s so good at the beginning and then we go down this rabbit hole of I don’t need friends in the outside world. I don’t need to communicate in real time because I have these friends online that are sitting on a couch with me. And there actually is tons of research. The um what you’re mentioning is pretty well known and I know that I knew immediately. I’m sure Alyssa knew immediately what you were talking about. Um but there’s documentaries, there’s research based on that environment and how it can really really affect um negatively. Yeah. How a person lives their lives. some people even um going into depression and anxiety when asked to leave those communities. Yeah, that’s a very it was a very interesting thing that I had never come across and but he was pretty convicted with some of those friends and they were formed really in a time of a lot of like worldly crisis and things going on and so they seemed or appeared to be pretty anchored relationships and so I guess it can be good as well. It’s one of those things that’s not necessarily good or bad. Um, but yeah, that was a question I had. U, another one with respect to what we do at Peaks. You know, you walk through our curriculum, you talk about grief and loss, we talk about some of these other big weeks that we have. How do we aim to help folks with screen addiction heal? How would our curriculum inform that? So, I don’t know if there’s any exact curriculum specifically around it, but it often comes up when we discuss, especially in relationships week. Um, relationships week is a really big one. I know I make a point to kind of discuss how do your relationships with people in person differ from maybe relationships that you have with them online. Um, and how do you maintain unhealthy relationships through social media that maybe should have had an expiration date? Um, because that’s one big thing with social media especially is that like we have this idea of like collecting people. Um, it’s like I know what Joemo from high school is doing and I am in my 30s and I don’t really need to know that we don’t talk. We don’t connect. There’s there’s nothing about this person’s life that I’m actually like deeply invested in and yet I have access to that and that’s kind of weird. Yeah. Like and it impacts me. It’s another one of those people at the door knocking like, “Hey, let my life impact yours.” And we invite this in and we feel like we have to maintain these relationships even when they’ve kind of like run their course. It’s not really natural for a person to maintain relationships with people h having no impact on their life except for like this passive like I know what they’re doing. Yeah. Yeah. 100%. And so I always like to kind of bring that into the room when we talk about relationships and we talk about boundaries and we talk about unhealthy relationship trajectories because sometimes like yeah we really don’t need all of that coming into our personal space all the time. It just doesn’t have to be there. Yeah. Right. Absolutely. And I imagine too it’s um you know with respect to screen addiction and the individualized approach that we take a lot of those issues I think or the people that are more prone to the addictive process whether it’s substance use or process addiction often have underlying trauma and I think our curriculum to your point I love that you guys bring it up in relationships that’s beautiful can really speak to that underlying intensity to kind of quell that a little bit so that up top here we can make a little bit more present of decision isions. Um, that’s really really cool. Um, and we’re getting ready to I believe we’re getting ready to start a screen addiction group. Um, we’re going to start that I think once a week and Alyssa is going to be the therapist. If you didn’t know, now you know. You didn’t know you’re going to run the group. That’s fine. Sounds great. But what is what do you think the efficacy is on having just a a group a week where we really actually talk about screens instead of the underlying kind of causation of the whole thing? Do you think that’d be beneficial for individuals coming into care? I mean, sure. I would imagine. Right. Um, it’s one of those things that’s kind of weird though because diagnostically we don’t have a way to identify it. Yeah. Um, like screen addiction is it’s kind of a colloquialism. It’s just a a word that we throw around with like addiction where we don’t have a way to identify who these people really are. We don’t have set criteria. um our diagnostic manual. Yeah, I think the only process addiction we have in there is gambling disorder. Um and the only process addiction that we have under review or in research in the new manual is internet gaming disorder and that’s the extent um of like what we’re looking at as far as screens go. So it’s really hard to identify. So, it’s an interesting question because this would have to be someone kind of selfidentifying utilizing the criteria of this is a problem and I want to look at it. Um, and I think it often kind of takes like a week or so without the phone for a lot of the people to realize this is a problem. Even, you know, I’ll get a couple sessions with a client before I’m like, how is it the phone? Like, like what would you be doing right now if we weren’t chatting every day? Um, and so I think it would be great to kind of identify that earlier and have people sitting together and recognizing that like, oh, I’m not the only person that feels like crap every time I’m on my phone and put it down. Because another thing we see is that social comparison. Um, other people look like they’re perfectly content with their relationship with their phone because they’re not advertising that, you know, I’m scrolling four hours every night when I get out of work and I feel like I’m wasting my life. Mhm. Um people aren’t exactly advertising that on the internet when they’re on the internet. Yeah. No, that makes a lot of sense, too. And like I’ve heard people like would get like flip phones and you you get like a little flippy phone and you can’t really do much on it other than just like answer phone calls. Absolutely. I thought about that and then I stopped thinking about that. Alyssa had an interesting stat statistic earlier in the week related to um the amount of time we use our phone. Yeah. So I you know there’s that one statistic that suggests that like screen time overall is like up to about 11 hours a day for an average American work included because of the work and everything. Um but then I was listening to a TED talk this past weekend actually where someone had identified that if you use your cell phone um for social media whatever um Tik Tok uh if you use your cell phone three hours a day which is actually kind of like a conservative average um you’re you’re going to spend about 10 years of your entire life on your phone. Um Wow. That gave me chills. Yeah, that’s scary. Yeah, because most people spend more than three hours a day. Yeah. Yeah. So, think about that one on your deathbed and you’re like life flashes before your eyes and you’re just like, “Ah, one more.” Would you update your social media that you were dying? Um, obviously, yeah. Yo, I’m dying. Someone bring me a cheeseburger. Nothing matters. That reminds me that reminds me of a statistic and I might butcher it, but I think it was if you practice something 10 minutes a day or it’s either 10 or 15 minutes a day and you do it every day, it’ll be a 100 hours for the year. Mhm. 100 hours. And you will probably be if you do that, I think it was like in the top 10% or whatever it is. That’s pretty cool. Yeah. That’s the opposite side of that, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Positive statistic. Yeah. Positive statistic. That one’s tough. Yeah. I always hate that, too. It’s like you have spent a little more time on your phone this week. Do you ever find and why is this? Maybe it’s the light. There’s got to be the blue light. Do you ever find when you look at screens too like later in the day it’s just kind of like just like sucks the life out of you. Is that because of blue light? It’s because of the screen. And so what we know is um we are not sleeping well if the TV is on, if the screens are on. And a lot of young people what we see is they’re falling asleep. they’re putting the popsockets up and they’re propping them and they’re falling asleep with whatever is playing on in the background. Whereas maybe my generation, we’re keeping the TVs on in the bedroom. Um, but that light is still going through and being processed. And anything that is playing on the phone, on the TV, on the iPad is being processed because what we do know is you are not unconscious. So your brain does not shut off when you are asleep. It is processing your environment. And so the light is bothering your sleep as well as whatever is being played on the devices. So if it’s something scary, if it’s something dramas, your brain is processing that and it’s keeping your body in fight or flight even in your sleep. Yeah. Why why is why do people talk about that’s a great point. Why do people talk about why it’s important for an hour before you go to sleep not to be on a device? Is it so your body can settle? Is it back to what Dr. Prince said? Yeah. So the blue light um evolutionarily indicates that it’s daytime. Um so your brain needs some time to shut down after daytime ends. And if you’re convincing it that it’s daytime still, you’re essentially not producing melatonin and you’re not getting all of the chemistry going that indicates to your body that you need sleep. Um, so you’re really just not cooling down your body. Uh, you are feeding it daytime. Wow, that makes a lot of sense because that’s what I feel like. And norm I go to bed at 8:30, usually pretty sharp, and I won’t jump on my phone 7:30. Like 8:30, I’m out. And if I don’t touch my phone, I’ll fall asleep, have the best night of sleep. But if I dare pick up the phone at like 8:15 and just do like a couple scrolls, I can’t fall asleep till 9:00. My sleep’s all jacked up. And so that goes back to one of the things we can do at Peaks with folks that are struggling obviously with co-occurring disorders, but specifically this screen stuff is like really get their sleep dialed in because I imagine a lot of these people that deal with that to your point and that story, you know, even and that’s that was that was like a big like mystery to me when I first realized that just because I slept eight hours doesn’t mean I actually slept eight hours. doesn’t mean that my REM sleep was two hours. Doesn’t mean my deep sleep was there. Doesn’t mean I give my ch my body the chance to recover. I think I had always kind of told myself that lie. I’m like, “No, I pass out and I wake up.” It’s like, “But what kind of sleep are you getting?” So, sleep hygiene, I think, something we can really speak to at peaks and really begin to allow people for their bodies for the first time to just settle the freak down, which is really, really extraordinary. Um, one of the last things, I brought it up initially on the show, we hand out iPads to each client that comes in. How can we begin to help support folks struggling with screen addiction with that very resource that we have on campus? I know there’s a way that you all do it for individuals and specifically for folks that struggle with screen time. How would we approach the iPad with them on the front end? I think Alyssa spoke to it a little earlier is we take away the phone. Our iPads are locked down. That sounds terrible but there is very limited access that they have. So they are not getting social media. They are not getting um Tik Tok. It is books often recommended by therapists books that are intended to help or support their therapeutic journey in some way. It is also um a way to communicate with family. very limited communication but still the ability to communicate and get support from their their people um that are not in in the facility with them. But in addition to that, they can turn in those iPads at any point and say at night me and my therapist talked, I I have most distress at night. Will nursing please keep this for me? And nursing will hold it. They’ll charge it for them. And if they want it in the morning, they can have it in the morning. Therapists also hold their boundary while they are in groups. So for the majority of the day, the therapists are saying, “No, no phones, no iPads, put it away.” They do have the ability to monitor on their um Fitbits. That’s right. But there is no electronics in the groups and they’re and our therapists are really good at saying, “Put it away. We’re not doing that. We are going to focus on this group, relationships, grief and loss. That’s cool. Yeah. I love it’s it’s more I hate the word restrictive, but it is more of a restricted device. We know what goes on and comes off of those things real time. Absolutely. The producer in the house takes care of all of that for us. So, it’s also like it’s just less stimulating. It’s not as compelling as the freedom of your phone. Yeah. So, I haven’t seen many people be able to abuse the iPads in any way. No. Yeah. they usually leave them behind, forget where they are at some point just because they don’t have that free access. Um there’s no ability to to look up social media to Google on those iPads as well. That’s right. There’s is there no internet access? There is, but it’s very limited. Okay. So, they are able to look up certain things, but it is it’s very very limited. Think about if you handed an iPad. um that had every parental restriction available and parents had to approve um what games or books and apps. Yeah, I had to think about it. Um and there’s the ability to watch Disney Plus. Oh, that’s cool. Yeah, I’d be down with that. Yeah, we do have access to Disney Plus on there. Yeah, it’s sweet because on Disney Plus you get I don’t know why I’m going down this rabbit hole, but you get like Hulu, too, right? Isn’t it in there? Uh, our Disney Plus does not separate our Disney here at Peaks. Our Disney Plus does not have Hulu, but it does have natural uh National Geographics. But I love it what what you guys were talking about, too. It’s like that dopamine hit. You know, you’re not going to necessarily get that by playing chess, or checkers or reading a book on your device, you know? How would you guys define would you define screen addiction in the same way you define addiction?
I think I already kind of like talked about this how it’s it’s different uh in a sense that like any sort of addictive process behavior is going to present a little bit differently, but you do have kind of like main themes of uh struggling to stop when you know you want to. Um being distressed when you can’t access it and things of that nature. Um, so I would say that it’s hard to say that it’s addiction through the lens of like a diagnosis, but through the lens of yeah, this behavior is addictive in description. Uh, yeah, it’s it’s addiction. Yeah, it really is. And you you you mentioned it too as well. That’s I forgot about that, but kind of doing the same thing over and over despite negative consequences. Yeah. And so I want people to really hear that because I think a lot of people I’m not addicted. I’m maybe I’m addicted. Maybe I have a problem, maybe I don’t have a problem. But those negative consequences internally and externally, I think, can speak volumes. I think that brings up a really good point, too, that like someone with a substance use disorder, those negative consequences are going to be very profound and obvious. Yeah. Um, I lost my family. I lost my job. I lost my car. Everything I care about is gone. Uh, you know, I have no money. I’m effectively screwed. I’m using my phone all the time. Like maybe maybe me and my partner are a little distant. They’re a little miffed at me because I’m always on my phone. Like but you know they’re not breaking up with me over it or I’m not losing my job because I check Tik Tok in the bathroom, right? Uh the the consequences feel lesser to people and they’re not as overt. And also when consequences happen, so maybe I do lose my job or maybe I get into a car accident because I’m texting, I’m less likely to attribute it strictly to my behavior with the phone. Um, I’m less likely to do that than say if I show up to work uh high and I get fired. I I know that was because I was high. If I get fired because I’m underperforming and it’s because I’m using my phone, I’m a lot more likely to to engage some cognitive dissonance to be like, well, it’s not the phone. It’s, you know, x, y, and z. Such and such doesn’t like me. It’s a lot easier to access excuses when we have something that is so ingrained in our society as an okay thing to do. Yeah, that’s a really good point. I would do that with substances. I mean, substance use folks, we do that all the time with certain things. Maybe it’s a medication from the doctor, but now that you brought that up, I’m like, I could cosign that until I die, you know, everybody’s doing it. You know, it’s like drinking in college. It’s like everybody’s doing it. It’s easy to do. You know, we can cosign that for ourselves. That’s a really good point. And I think one of which that like the viewers really need to hear. It’s and it goes back to this thing that I talked about yesterday. I was up at um Colorado College talking about mental health and substance use to diversity. We were talking about rock bottom and kind of raising the bottom for individuals because for years and you know since 1935 if you’re not done you’re not done you know and I had to remind everybody that it’s 2025 and we have these new opportunities to raise the bottom and I think that’s kind of what you just said there is the folks that are listening we don’t have to wait until we lose everything. We don’t have to wait until we don’t have any relationships. We don’t have to wait until we can’t put food in the pantry. We can elevate that bottom, treat this thing, and move on and have a happy and purposeful life. There’s a really good exercise I like to do with people to kind of identify when our behaviors are misaligned with our values. Um, and it it really applies to kind of like identifying when your relationship with your phone is probably not in alignment with your values. But I have them kind of list out on one side the values I want to live by. So say like I want to live by like family and fitness and you know humor. Um and the values I actually live by is like humor scrolling on my phone. Um like whatever. And the more misaligned those things are, the more dysfunctional someone generally presents as far as like feeling depressed, feeling anxious, whatever. Um, and so when we do this, it kind of actually gives us a road map of like what are the things that are drawing you away from your values and the phone sometimes does come up of like, well, I wanna I want to be healthier. Absolutely. And I want to be more active. And one thing we see a lot is because of this screen time is that a lot of people are less healthy and less active because they’re spending time on their phone. And so it’s like, okay, well, can we put a boundary here so that you can get more in aligned with this value? And by doing that, you know, you’re increasing your sense of well-being and maybe you’re increasing your self-confidence, you’re increasing trust with yourself, and you’re less likely to reach for the phone the next time you’re disregulated, maybe because you know that going for a jog is actually going to be better for you. Um, but identifying those misalignments is just a huge thing for recognizing the way the phone or the screen or the video game might be pulling you away from the things that you think that you value but aren’t living by. Yeah. No, that’s really extraordinary. It actually reminds me of a a step in the 12 steps that talks about when you go through your fourth step, they they they form a safe, sound sex ideal. But the ideal is about values. It’s about what’s valuable to you in these relationship and is the person sitting in front of you meeting those your value system. I used to carry I mean I got into recovery at 22 so I had to carry a little card just to remind myself and I’d pull it out of my wallet. I’d be like, “Oh shoot, it’s old behavior. We’re doing it again.” And but that’s a really good way to kind of stay in alignment with who you want to be. Mhm. That’s really cool. I think that’s a really really cool way to kind of approach that. Yeah, that makes sense. And it’s one of those things that you can like reach for and you’re not going to get perfect. Um but with practice, you can begin to become more in alignment with your values. I I’ve been telling people lately with respect to like substance use, like not get addicted to these new behaviors, but get addicted to the way you feel when you live within your values. You know, that’s really inspiring. when I do that, you know, a day on, a day off, or a few days in a row, it feels really good to live inside of that. It feels succinct and I can be what I really struggle to be often times, and that’s present. So, I love that you mentioned that. Um, as we wrap up today, um, for our viewers, is there anything that you would like to say to folks out there that are struggling, thinking about picking up the phone, maybe not reaching out or in fear, don’t feel like they belong anywhere? um as most of our callers call in and kind of have that feeling kind of one of the crappier days of their life. What what can we say to those individuals who are kind of on the fence and struggling um with respect to potentially peaks recovery but what recovery can look like for these folks? Yeah, there there’s a difference um when we put down our phones. You are not alone. We and we’re here to help. We oftent times, and I’ve said this before even on the even on the podcast, that the most common thing I’m asked is, “Is there anyone like me out there? Is there anyone suffering the way I am suffering?” And the answer is yes. And is recovery possible? And the answer is yes. We see it every day at peaks. I just yesterday got a beautiful email from someone who we spoke about in our last podcast who’s doing great. So that’s so cool. Yeah. I think with respect to the conversation that we’re having today and if someone is struggling with screens in particular and feeling like why am I so dysfunctional that I can’t moderate this relationship or whatever I think I would like to tell them that like that is part of what they want like these screens are meant to be compelling and you are merely following the wiring that that those are for. And so you’re not alone in it. A lot of people are struggling with it. It is it is really really confusing. Um and we do have ways and strategies of changing that relationship. And you don’t have to be a superhuman to change it. Like you really don’t you don’t need the most willpower in the world. Uh you don’t need to be like I don’t know uh the greatest person ever in order to get away from these things that are created to addict you. Um you just need community. Like you just need real people. Mhm. Like that’s really what it is and that’s the hard thing. I love that. Yeah. I always tell my boys, I really appreciate that. It was a cool conversation. You guys provided a lot of uh expertise and insight for our viewers. But I always tell my boys when I get off their iPads, I’m like, “Welcome back to human life.” And they’re like, “Oh man, it’s crazy out here, huh?” Like, “It’s wild. There’s sun and there’s rain, clouds, and they’re like, “Whatever, Dad. What? Go outside.” You know? So, well, I really appreciate you guys taking the time today to share with our viewers and folks that are struggling out there. I know it’s going to be meaningful and impactful for them to kind of hear this podcast and see what’s available, not just at Peaks Recovery, but in the community. And I love how you all said it. I I I think the single greatest coping mechanism I’ve ever had in my recovery, as I said before the show, is a community wrapped around me of people marching to the beat of the same drum. So, thank you both. Have a beautiful day. Until next time, my people. Peace. [Music] [Applause] [Music]